Spark of Ages
In every episode, we’re going to do a deep dive with our guest about what led them to their own 'eureka' moments, how they went about executing it, and perhaps most importantly, how do they get other people to believe in them so that their idea could also someday become a Spark for the Ages.
Spark of Ages
Secret Sauce of CMOs/Alice Crowder - Chicken Sandwich Wars, Segmentation, Hedonistic Index ~ Spark of Ages Ep 25
Join Rajiv Parikh on the Spark of Ages podcast as he explores the secrets behind Krispy Krunchy Chicken's rise in the Chicken Sandwich Wars. With insights from Alice Crowder, the CMO who has transformed the brand's offerings into must-have menu items we'll learn about marketing innovation, and why KKC is a cut above the rest. Discover the secrets behind their mouth-watering chicken, growth strategy, and how Alice’s leadership is fueling a nationwide craze. Get a firsthand look at how strategic data use and innovative marketing have redefined roles in the fast-food sector, amidst technological evolution.
Explore the unique challenges of marketing a restaurant within a convenience store setting, an environment where traditional demographics give way to occasion-based consumer behaviors. From regular C-store diners to third-party delivery service users, we discuss the distinctive strategies that cater to each segment, and how these approaches enhance brand awareness and consumer loyalty. Through platforms like Uber Eats and Grubhub, learn how KKC is expanding its reach and market basket size, all while maintaining the freshness and quality that define its "hot store" concept.
Wrap up with a lighthearted game that uncovers surprising fast-food myths and truths, revealing the quirks of the industry. Hear about grassroots marketing campaigns like the MyKKC challenge, which engage consumers through creativity and passion. Alice shares how KKC aligns new product ideas with consumer expectations using a structured innovation funnel, ensuring a harmonious balance between enjoyment and strategic marketing. This episode promises a fascinating journey through the competitive and ever-evolving world of fast-food marketing. Tune in for rich flavors of marketing wisdom, laughter, and maybe a bit of chicken envy. 🍗🔥 📚
Alice Crowder: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alicecrowder
Krispy Krunchy Chicken: https://www.instagram.com/krispykrunchychicken/
West With the Night by Meryl Barkham: https://www.amazon.com/West-Night-Beryl-Markham-ebook/dp/B0B4VCG4SY
Producer: Anand Shah & Sandeep Parikh
Technical Director & Sound Designer: Sandeep Parikh, Omar Najam
Executive Producers: Sandeep Parikh & Anand Shah
Associate Producers: Taryn Talley
Editor: Sean Meagher & Aidan McGarvey
#chickensandwichwars #dataanalytics #innovation #growth #branding #sales #data #analytics #product #revenue #revenuegrowth #management #entrepreneurship #growthmindset #growthhacking #salestechniques #salestips #enterprise #business #companies #smartgrowth #efficiency #process #processimprovement #value #valuecreation #funny #podcast #comedy #desi #indian #community
Website: https://www.position2.com/podcast/
Rajiv Parikh: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajivparikh/
Sandeep Parikh: https://www.instagram.com/sandeepparikh/
Email us with any feedback for the show: spark@postion2.com
Hello and welcome to the Spark of Ages podcast. In this episode, we'll be exploring Krispy Krunchy Chicken or KKC and the larger chicken sandwich wars landscape in which our guests, our special guest, Alice Crowder competes in. Alice is the CMO of KKC, which is one of the fastest growing hot food concepts in the convenience store business. KKC has built a cult like brand with consumers and has grown to over 3, 000 retail locations across 47 states. Alice's food and beverage marketing experience also includes Krystal Restaurants, where she also served as CMO, Tropical Smoothie Cafe, where she headed menu strategy and innovation and multiple years. With Denny's as their senior director of new product marketing.
Sandeep Parikh:Oh my God. I should not have started this podcast with an empty stomach. This was a mistake.
Rajiv Parikh:Today's show is a little different than what we typically do. We're looking at the CMO role at a consumer based company. So we can hunt for ideas that might spark our own creativity and imagination in terms of go to market growth. Some of the key takeaways you can expect from this episode. Growth strategy in a highly competitive category like Chicken sandwiches, and that's super competitive, by the way. The role data and analytics play in driving go to market for a consumer product. The evolution of the CMO role that comes with technological upheaval. Alice, welcome to the Spark of Ages.
Alice Crowder:Thank you for having me.
Rajiv Parikh:Great to have you here. We. Uh, you came upon us through the marketing Mars event that one of our folks who arranges the show, Taryn, uh, met you there and she just loved your style, love your way of thinking and the way you innovate. And so, uh, so glad to have you here. I think it'll be a lot of fun, uh, and a lot of learning for us. One of the questions that we want to just kick off with, this is a, the, the chicken sandwich space is a super hot space, right? I mean, even McDonald's now has created a chicken, big Mac. Right. Cause they, they see, they see their lunch being eaten. So as a marketer, um, your company is one of the most fiercely contested, uh, of those products, right? The chicken sandwich. And when you joined the company just recently in 2023 with a chicken sandwich war, something you considered in differentiating Krispy Krunchy foods from anyone else, where there's some differentiation that, that you felt, or was this just a super fast growing category, you know, that you felt that you could really innovate on.
Alice Crowder:Yeah, it's a great question. You know, our business was built on, uh, bone in chicken and, um, uh, and tenders and we had a chicken sandwich when I got here, but really all the love and the history of the company had come from from bone in and tenders when we started to look at it. It was a real miss in terms of the product mix that we had. It was designed for value as opposed to consumer delight. So it was a thinner product. It's what we call chopped in form, which is where you take a bunch of chicken bits and kind of crush them together to look like a patty. Um, and it was at a really competitive price point. But it was more stomach fill than a product that would build an affinity with a guest. So when I started, uh, Head of Supply Chain and I started working on it, we wanted a sandwich that would represent the quality that the bone in and the tenders did. From our research, what we know is people seek out Krispy Krunchy For three reasons the first is quality the second is value number three crave ability uh, we absolutely deliver on that with bonan and Our tenders, but the sandwich was more a value price point So we really deconstructed the whole thing. We ate a lot of chicken sandwiches from a lot of different people Um, uh, I can't imagine the research phase
Sandeep Parikh:must have been pretty fun. I
Alice Crowder:mean, really, if I'm honest, this is the best job in the world. I would talk to my husband. He's like, what are you doing? I'm eating out and chicken sandwiches.
Sandeep Parikh:I
Alice Crowder:gotta eat three more.
Sandeep Parikh:Yeah, I'm working right now. Don't, don't bug me. Don't bother me.
Alice Crowder:I got to digest some chicken. Um, But so we started with the meat. We started with the chicken. Our chicken, uh, is marinated in this really lovely, mild blend of Cajun seasoning. So we started there. We also got what we call whole muscle, like breast meat, like we just carved the breast meat out of the chicken. So it's the highest kind of quality piece of the chicken. It's whole, and then it's marinated, um, in these great spices, and then it's lightly coated With uh, our proprietary breading which gives it that really nice crunch Like there's a lot of asmr with our brand right you bite it and you hear it Um, but we didn't stop there We have a signature honey sauce that we put on our biscuits We put a little of that on we even upgraded the pickles. So we have these really crisp Flavorful dill slices you can tell if somebody cares about the quality of their product You By if they skimp on the pickles or not and we did that's right I was gonna
Sandeep Parikh:say nobody loves a soggy pickle, but yet yeah Yeah,
Alice Crowder:and then we topped it with this lovely, um soft brioche bun so you put it all together we did a lot of testing Uh to make sure that what we thought was good was what our target Thought was good and then we introduced it with quite a bit of fanfare Um, earlier this year, uh, and since then sales of the sandwich have doubled. We're, we're at 200 percent of what we were last year. Oh my gosh. So people are really responding to it.
Sandeep Parikh:Were you ever surprised by the reactions in your testing? Like, was there ever like, my man, I really like this version of the sandwich or this version of the sauce. And, but everybody seems to like this other one. I'm just curious, like, were there any sort of surprises that came out of that testing?
Alice Crowder:Yeah. So I'm always wrong. It is a joke with our chef who has been with me at several brands for about a decade. Um, it's whatever Alice thinks is
Sandeep Parikh:definitely
Alice Crowder:going to tank in research. One of the things we did when I started with the brand is a segmentation study, which is a fancy way of saying we figured out who. Our brand serves what we represent to those people and who they want us to be And so when I do testing taste testing concept testing Anything else we speak only to those people. We have something called a typing tool so that when I go into research we are Testing with the people who are most likely to be exposed to the product Um, and then they tell us You If what we guessed is right or wrong and help us get to the right spot for them. One of the, I'm a little bit famous for a bit of a feisty temper. And one of my triggers is I hear from investors and board members and salespeople all the time. Well, you should have consulted me because what I think your gut is not statistically significant. Okay. Yeah. 120 people who represent your target. That's where you want to get your insights. So, yes, I have been proven wrong many times. Um, the, the sandwich, one of them, um, the bun, um, I wanted a little bit heartier bun, a little bit chewier bun. Um, but turns out people really want that contrast between super soft bun. Super Krispy fillet.
Rajiv Parikh:So yeah, so that, that's what you, you know, sort of meant by the, the, not just the taste, but the crave ability. Right. So that's part of that, that whole notion of putting it together. It's not the, not the individual. It's how it comes together.
Everyone:Yeah. It's the whole palate experience. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Rajiv Parikh:So if you try to do the Silicon Valley thing or not, or the, the, you know, the thing where you try to remove the bun and just have the meat that you're not getting the experience.
Alice Crowder:Yeah, we learned this on, um, I just tested, um, some chicken tenders, and we thought we had done a good job, uh, with designing the test, and I wanted them just to taste the tender and tell me what they thought about it, but we got a lot of feedback that that's not how I eat a tender. To me, the tender is a sauce conduit. I want to get as much honey mustard as I can on there and eat that. That's how you should have tested. And I'm, and in my head, I'm like, well, you're not giving me a pure read on the tender, but it's my own words coming back to eat, right? You have to test it the way that your target's going to enjoy it. Uh, and so, yeah.
Rajiv Parikh:And how did you decide who your target was? Cause I, and this actually kind of combines with this notion of the, the hot food concept, which I think is, so let's talk about the target and then let's get into the hot food concept. Cause I'm, I think the both are really interesting ways of how, This is a different business than what most people would normally think
Alice Crowder:it is. Um, that's something I came from a long line of, of QSR and before that packaged goods and so came with a lot of assumptions about what a restaurant operating in a C store should and could be. It's a different target. It's a different set of expectations. It's a different set of occasions. So to answer your first question, We did a traditional segmentation the first month that I was here. And this is where I geek out. So you're just going to have to give me a sign or something. That's like, I love the geeking out. Some people get us back
Rajiv Parikh:on track if we geek out too far.
Alice Crowder:Yeah. So in a segmentation, you go out and you talk to a whole bunch of different people and you ask them questions like, do you eat fried chicken? There's a group that eats fried chicken if you do where are all the places that you Eat fried chicken. Well, I eat at kfc and chick fil a and If they name your restaurant That's giving you a point of aided of unneeded awareness Right, so we put them in a group after that we say All right, what if I give you some names? What about Krispy Krunchy chicken? Oh, yeah, I've eaten there Okay, and that gives you another set of terms. So when we talk about Brand awareness we talk in terms of unaided awareness and aided awareness unaided you want because that means you're really top of mind But Aiden, at least you're in the consideration set, right? And then we start talking to those folks. So, when do you eat chicken? Why do you eat the chicken? What are you looking for in the chicken? The chicken that you like the best. What does it look like? The chicken that you don't like. What is it like? What do you expect to pay? And so, when you put all those into, uh, A big chart you start to see how different groups come together and those are your segments Um, it used to be that people did segmentation strictly on demographics Like I like single or people like me are single women with 1. 3 kids and they make this much money It turns out to be more nuanced than that. So our segments are based on demographics, but also Occasions so my number one target
Everyone:Is a
Alice Crowder:group I have three targets our number one target or segment is a group of people that regularly get their prepared food from convenience stores because it's affordable and because their schedules are such that They need it when they need it and they're going to stop in in the morning maybe And get a Mountain Dew or a coffee But they're also going to pick up a three piece and a biscuit for lunch that day and put it into their cooler the representative of You The population, they use us interchangeably with QSR with your with fast food, but we are seen in their mind as the same quality as fast food, but at a better price.
Everyone:And
Alice Crowder:then when they compare us to other choices, other chicken choices and convenience stores, they see us at the same price. But a higher quality so we have this beautiful little sweet spot with that segment I have a second segment that's for lack of a better word hipsters Who think it's cool to find cool stuff in a convenience store to chow down on? Yeah, okay And you see them on instagram and tiktok all the time I found this great chicken at the convenience store and I put some Cheeto dust on it, you know.
Sandeep Parikh:I, I hear you on this hipster segment. Uh, these are, these are my people, my friends. I'm
Alice Crowder:always fascinated with how people take things. We put all this research and care and everything in the things. Um, and people go into a convenience store and you're like, I'm going to chop up some sweet tarts and put it on this business. Yeah.
Sandeep Parikh:Yeah. And then, you know, you get enough of a segment there and suddenly you're doing a collab with sweet tarts and you're on to a whole new product line. Yeah. Drop my
Rajiv Parikh:five hour energy onto the chicken
Alice Crowder:and wake myself up. 100%. 100%. And then our third segment are people who aren't necessarily going to go into a convenience store isn't in their consideration set for. Hot food, they might go in for a candy bar or some smokes or drink or whatever. Um, but if they see a high quality product on a 3rd party delivery, like an uber eats or a door dash, they're going to order it there. And so they're much less price sensitive. Um, but we can build loyalty with them through third party. So those are my three segments. Oh,
Rajiv Parikh:that's, that's a really interesting segment. I mean, so the actual listing on a Grubhub, Uber eats, something like that will actually drive, drive sales for you or drive, drive the market for you.
Alice Crowder:Yeah. Yeah, it does. Um, and we're seeing, we're getting all of our stores on third party right now, but we're, we've got about, um, Call it 600 stores of the, of the 3000 on and what we see is that people spend three times, two and a half times to three times what they do in store online. So if I'm going to spend 10 for a meal in the convenience store, the order that shows up to my house is, I think it's pretty close to 26 and 50 cents. So it's a much bigger market basket. They order different things. They try things from their home, from their couch.
Rajiv Parikh:That's amazing. So this gets to that concept of the hot store, right? The hot store concept, because if, which is different than, is this the first type that you're doing of this in your career or have you, did you do variations of this before what you're saying actually in this is like, Because you can locate with greater density in these different convenience stores, like an Uber Eats or a Grubhub, I can actually get you fresher product.
Alice Crowder:Yeah.
Rajiv Parikh:You know, in, in the given timeframe, right? Because it's, you'll be in more locations that are near a particular person.
Alice Crowder:Yeah. So we have pretty high penetration, 3, 000 stores, nothing, nothing to sneeze at. We'll have 4, 000 at the end of next year. Right. I
Rajiv Parikh:think you were growing like, you were growing at like 500 to 700, you know, a year. A year. It's just an incredible amount. Yeah.
Alice Crowder:Yeah, because we don't have to buy the real estate. So people, our licensees have their, their pad, they have their convenience store, and then they have, we talk about fuel and merchandise. So the inside of the store is their merchandise sales piece. The hot food concept in our research is about 20 percent of those merchandise sales. Um, but once you add a Krispy Krunchy, your, um, your sales go up, uh, 15 to 20 percent and your traffic increases too, because there is enough brand loyalty that people will drive past another convenience store to get to one with a Krispy Krunchy. Um, because they're, they know there is that kind of loyalty. Um, and so it does provide an accretive impact to sales and to traffic.
Sandeep Parikh:So for, for the, the layman who has not experienced a Krispy country, Krunchy, can, can you just give it like, so what's the experience? I'm, I'm like passing a wawa and then I'll see a sign on the wall or something that, that says Krispy Krunchy inside, or like, how do they, how do they know that a convenience store has, has it?
Alice Crowder:So it has signage on the outside. So Wawa has their own food program, but if they ever wanted to upgrade, gimme a call. I can help you out. Wawa . Let's talk about Circle K. Circle K. Yes. Circle K. Circle K. Yes. So go by a circle K. You'll see, um, on most of, of the exteriors, um, uh, a lighted dye cut sign that says Krispy Krunchy chicken. Um, we also, when we open a store, have a. Big merchandising package. Um, the center of which are these, um, we call'em the flying drumsticks. These huge win waivers that are just like a big drumstick. Um, so you would see that you would come in and um, you know, here's your coolers of drinks over here. Here's some snacks, here's the counter with the lottery tickets. And then on one of the main counters is a hot food case.
Everyone:Usually
Alice Crowder:with a little kitchen, um, either right there with it or behind it in a space depending on the size of the store. Um, and you just go up and you order it like you would anything in a, in a food court or a bodega or whatever, it's right there for you.
Rajiv Parikh:That's really cool. So that, so you come in and, and so you have actually a two part job as the head of marketing and it sounds like you're also involved, heavily involved in product as well. Maybe in your world, marketing is product, right? Cause that's, Part of the four pieces, right? And, but you're marketing to the consumer, you're promoting to the consumer, but you're also promoting to all these outlets of these places that could sign up for it. So you have a, you almost said you're doing B2B and B2C.
Alice Crowder:That's a big part of what we do. And this brand was built when it was started 37 years ago, it was built as a solution for operators. And for a long time, the only communication stream was between the And the, the operator, the owner of the convenience store to say, we'll make a little more money. This is an easy way to do it. When we were, uh, purchased by private equity about 3 years ago, they saw the value as, as I did when I started looking at the brand of also being a brand that has a communication system and a relationship with the end user, the get, we call them guests. And so what we've been doing for the past couple of years since I've been here is building that side of the business, understanding what they want from us as an experience and modifying the way we go to market and what we offer those guests to make us even more appealing and create loyalty.
Rajiv Parikh:It's not just a little add on, you take it and you run. Some of them actually eat in the, they eat at the convenience store, you know, there's, there can be seats there. And so part of the training or the understanding is that taking it like in a dedicated franchise outlet, that's all they do right now. You're taking someone who is, this is a way to drive income and drive, drive additional, um, you know, retention or more. More folks coming in more folks staying and so you're reaching you have to sort of you have to do a dual training, right? You gotta you have to get them to to this is yes, this can make you more money You have to take this much space you have to actually make the goods here and you have to treat people in a certain way
Alice Crowder:Yes, um, which you know, most of our operators understand that intuitively uh our business The majority of our business are with independent operators. We, we have some chains. We're working on getting more chains, but we were, we were built on folks who it's a family business for the most part.
Everyone:A
Alice Crowder:lot of our operators, the family works there and so it's their business and they understand. The importance of being part of the community and treating everyone who comes in as part of that family So the hospitality part is almost ingrained in the business model The harder part believe it or not is
Everyone:there's
Alice Crowder:benefit and challenge with being a family business For example, if you have third party you guys order doordash new breeds Probably the prime times for that are friday night and saturday night for a convenience store that's owned by a family That's their family time. They want to, they want to quit at 5 and go. That's their night to go out with their family. That's when they're at home. And so they're like, that's just an off time for me. So having to negotiate working with their familial structure and their business structure and then negotiating whenever conflicts come is a big part of what we do.
Sandeep Parikh:Yeah, I would imagine. Potentially a lot of South Asian mom and pop business owners, right? Sure. Those are, those are literally our people. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's great because it's not beef. Uh, cause that would be that maybe not so great for us or pork. This is chicken. We can deal with chicken. Yeah.
Alice Crowder:We're chicken. We're chicken in these wonderful, um, we call them crack biscuits. Cause there are these really sweet cat head drop biscuits with honey all over them. Everybody can eat those. Yeah.
Rajiv Parikh:Everyone can have some of those. That sounds great. So think of when, when you think about it, like as a marketer, you. You probably have come across many great different types of promotions that people have used. People use in terms of driving their business and you've seen it across so many different categories. So what's a favorite of yours for how you drew, how you see, you know, drove the growth. I know right now you have that 4 value meal. I saw that. That's like, that's a, that's a thing of today, probably dealing with today's market and today, today's concept. But is there something that really caught your eye that. All right. This really worked well. I think he's talked about the chicken bone at the top or the chicken. Yeah.
Alice Crowder:Yeah. The flying, the flying drumstick worked really well for us. We rebranded when I got here and I think that helped because the brand hadn't really focused on the guest experience.
Everyone:They
Alice Crowder:just kind of went in and said, let's just. Put it in and see what happens. And so there was a lot of red and white and a lot of really functional Uh kind of signage around it When we came in and have an amazing creative team and started looking at all right Let's look at this through the guests eyes. How do we create an actual environment for them? So we changed the color Scheme entirely because if you think about convenience stores, it's all red and white and if you put a red and white It's the best camouflage there is you put a red and white sign on A display that's all red and white around it. You don't see it So we created and there's so much clutter too because every brand is competing For the consumer eye, so we created what we call the visual oasis Uh, every time I say it, my CEO rolls his eyes at me. He's like, Alice, you and your words.
Rajiv Parikh:But, um, You are an English major, so that isn't a thing. I'm an English major.
Alice Crowder:Um, so it's, it's, we, we have a lot of blue space, like a beautiful deep blue with one central picture and the key words for our guests, which, which are, um, hand breaded and prepared fresh. Because people, we're so proud of the fact that we're fresh chicken. No one knew. Never frozen. Never frozen and so that is a big part We it's you hear a lot in advertising and marketing about single most important message for us single most important message is, um, never frozen freshly made hand breaded back of the house and so all of our messaging is a variation on those key points presented Um, in as simple as a way and as visually engaging in a way as possible, and it makes a difference. So people started seeing us.
Rajiv Parikh:Do you, do you have like salivation studies? Like when you see the picture, like try to, you know, when I, when your audience looks at this, it's like, it must be like certain because you're trying to evoke,
Sandeep Parikh:you know, you're trying to get people, you're trying to get people to crave the craving. I mean, I guess, I guess that's what you talked about when you went with the but I, I just wanted to shout out. English majors. Okay. So this is, you know, clear cut example. You are a clear cut example of why being an English major, why focusing on communication and studying this can actually benefit and, and, and, and lead to good jobs, uh, and, and, and have, you know, Be productive members of society and shouldn't be frowned upon. Uh, I'm mostly speaking to South Asian parents. Um, but yeah,
Rajiv Parikh:but as the theater major, right? Yeah, yeah. Let's not push it. It wasn't a theater major. No, film, sorry, film and, uh, and computer science. Something was filming to make his parents happy. I'm sure,
Sandeep Parikh:you know, just, Hey, look, it's, it's hard to figure out what two words are going to really. Stick out to people as they're stumbling through or walking through or hurrying through a convenience store to make them stop and go, Hey, this is something I want to pay attention to and potentially purchase. Right? So for coming up with hand breaded, like as soon as you said those, I pictured myself in the middle of a circle K or whatever. And I are, I have my skepticism about the food there. Being like, this isn't, this is not gonna be good food for me, like, this is not why I'm, I'm not doing this for health reasons necessarily, but you say that, and all of a sudden I'm like, a little bit perked up, like that, you know, and you go, hey, maybe this isn't so bad for me, and, and I should, you know, And I do had a move, and so this is a good option for me. Um, but it probably took you a while, I imagine, or maybe you could speak to this, like, to, to figure out what, what those exact words were.
Alice Crowder:I go back to the segmentation. Like, my, my team gets sick of me saying this, but I, I don't believe there's any problem that can't be solved by process and communication. And so when we listen to the guests and segmentation, um, we do this thing called, I don't know, I think it's called like a hedonistic index. Um. But we not only find out
Sandeep Parikh:you've got the best words
Alice Crowder:I can't I can't claim that
Sandeep Parikh:index i'm writing that down
Alice Crowder:So it's we look at how you rate each part Of the chicken eating experience, but then we overlay that with what's most important to you So you may think for example that our breading is great and that the meat is really juicy Which one of those? Is the one that pushes you more towards the purchase And for us it was it was the freshness Um, yeah people really respond exactly what you're talking about people. Um, Go into a convenience store and they're like, well, I bet this is gonna be crap Yeah, but when they see that it's it comes in fresh It's pre marinated, but it comes in fresh and then we double bread it back in the house. You're like, okay You If my mama could cook, that's how she would make it, no offensive to Crowder, but, you know, it gives, it pushes, it resets your expectation for what the experience is going to be. I love
Rajiv Parikh:that. So people, when they do come in, they really do care, right? It is, it is sort of the opposite expectation of what you get from a, from a convenience store in terms of quick, Grab and go and just eat. This is like, I'm getting something fresh. They actually, Oh, they've actually read it in the back, which is awesome. And then make it there, which I'm sure is part of the process you've had to work on and create, you know, to enable and sustain and, and check upon. I wonder like when you talked about Uber right? There are these new sales channels. Right. That you were talking about, you're seeing three X, the level of purchasing on that, on those platforms versus others. So one of the things we see is like the rise of retail media networks, right? So like Chick fil A has its own streaming service. Are you thinking about that as well? Or how to, how to leverage that because you have a connection to the consumer, maybe not a loyalty program per se, but it's through the, through the owner operator, how are you trying to reinforce the brand in place, either in store or outside a store?
Alice Crowder:Yeah, it's tough because so, yes, we are thinking about it, but we're also. Really nascent stages right of building our guest relationship. If you talk to our operators who are awesome folks, they have, I think, even more so than a franchisee of a QSR or something like that to them. It's KK, it's Krispy Krunchy, but it's their Krispy Krunchy. And so the level of ownership and pride they take in it is much more almost proprietary than it would be with like a more established brand. So you hear them be like, well, my KKC, I do, you know, this, um, which from a brand standards standpoint, it's tough. Cause you know, as a marketer, you want consistency, but at the same time you go in, you're like. That's pretty cool. I've got one guy, uh, who takes the chicken tender, wraps it up in a tortilla with a little bit of cheese, and uh, like a, Uh, a soft fried egg is it is killer, but they have that belief in the quality of the product.
Rajiv Parikh:There's a lot of great social posts coming out of that, which I'm sure your team has been working on and developing. I know you use that extensively in your previous and your previous roles. So are you seeing that too, as part of driving it?
Alice Crowder:So we don't, I have used influencers a lot, like NIL and stuff like that, but the influencers that we engage with are true brand fans. We get a lot of organic content from them. I mean, we do some, some placements and then we get organic content and then we boost it out. Um, because it's a creative bunch too. I have one guy in Baltimore who took all the POP out the front of his store and made an outfit out of it. So like the, the feather flag, or it's like, A vest and he like wrapped the legs of his thing with With like some window clings or something and he does this like Krispy Krunchy dance like all dressed in my pop um How
Sandeep Parikh:perfect for our Halloween themed episode. Oh
Alice Crowder:my gosh, if you don't think I'm wearing that next week, you're crazy. To answer your question directly, like we, we're really starting to test levers to understand what people relate to. Our socials do really well because there's that kind of organic love. I've worked for brands where the product was kind of, and so the marketing had to work harder. But if I get this product in anybody's mouth, they're immediately. A brand fan. So I like to use those fans as much as possible. So we elevate them. We've done some advertising testing, like some traditional testing. We'll do more of that next year, but really for us, it's about building awareness. We still have a lot of awareness to build before we start worrying about conversion.
Rajiv Parikh:No, that's a great way of thinking about it in a great way. Like, yeah, what I meant influencer networks, I meant you don't have to go hire them. And the best ones are the organic ones that people feel passionate about. So I love the story about the person stealing your, stealing your marketing material or taking your marketing material and actually wearing it. It's, that's awesome. Your, your presence. I like
Sandeep Parikh:the idea of issuing the my KKC challenge. You know, like showcase that guy that made the like tortilla wrapped one and then go like, all right, other KKCs, like, how are you going to top what you got?
Alice Crowder:Other guy who's just crazy and he posts about us all the time and he always does this like little blessing before and he's like, love to the Krispy love to the Krunchy love to the chicken. It just cheers me up to watch him because he like, You watch people eat this product and it's obsessed. It's joy, man. Yeah, like it evokes joy in them Like not a lot of other stuff does and that just has a a marker and just even more as a part of the brand That just makes you feel good,
Rajiv Parikh:right? That's amazing. So then how does, when you take all this, right, you may say, uh, what I love, what I love about talking with you is that you may say, I'm, I'm originally an English major and you talk about the words, but you actually do a lot with data, right? And with consumers, it's critical. To nail it with, with data, especially when you're, when you're doing such scale. So can you just talk about a little bit more of that data and analytics and how you've used that to innovate?
Alice Crowder:Yeah. So I don't, I have very little patience with marketers, even when they're successful, that are like, I know my customer and this is what I'm going to do. That's just like gambling. Just go to Vegas and put all your money on red or black. Um, so we actually have an innovation funnel. Here that we work on, um, using that typing tool that I talked about, which means we're only talking to people who are either current users of the brand or potential users of the brand. It's kind of a 3 stage process. So, the 1st is the concept itself, and we come up with, so you think about your traditional funnel, very top of the funnel, whole bunch of ideas every month. So, 2 sentence ideas. What if we, what if we put cream cheese icing on a biscuit and put. Sprinkles on it. What if we made chicken nuggets and put them between two waffles? What if we did and so that's just the concept and we concept test those through the typing tool And get a pretty good rough read of purchase intent and uniqueness and brand fit Those are kind of trinity from that then from that that gives us our highest Potential ideas and we start flushing them out. We see if we can build it, we cost it and see if it works within our cost structure. Then we would go to like a simulated marketing test where we set up a menu and it's part of it, and then we put it online with that same typing tool and people order just like they would, Hey, you're ordering lunch today. What are you going to get? I'm going to get this. And that gives us an idea of. In a retail environment, what's the take rate going to be for this item? So by that point, you know, hey, people think this is a good idea. And if I put it on the menu amongst a whole bunch of other good ideas, it's going to get ordered to take great that I like the 3rd piece of the puzzle is what we call central location test where you get about 120 people. In a room and they taste it Diagnostically, so i'll put um a new chicken tender in front of you And then I ask you if you would order it. I ask you if it would make you come to my store more often Um, I ask you about the value I ask you about brand fit But then I get into the nitty gritty was this These things called jar scores just about right scores. So was this tender, too big, too small, or just about right. Was the breading too thick, too thin, or just about right? Too juicy, too dry, just about right. And you're looking for a bell curve, right? But from that, at the end of the day, I can say, Wow, for X idea that people loved and people are going to buy the palette expectation was matched or was not matched by the taste experience. And that allows me to go back and say, this would be a winner. If the breading had a little more flavor. And we cut back on the marinade and maybe it was a skosh smaller so that by the time you go to a traditional market test, you're placing a pretty solid bet based on data.
Sandeep Parikh:Curious if AI has any influence on any of this part of the process for you or you've, have you thought about that at all?
Alice Crowder:Yeah, people talk, people love AI, man. Yeah, people love it. So if you
Sandeep Parikh:have to ask the question, you can also
Rajiv Parikh:say, no, maybe, maybe with data, it does. I mean, it's not going to, it may not come up with your latest creative concept, or maybe it will actually help you ideate with creative concepts and visuals and that kind of stuff. But maybe in the data, there's ways of looking at data differently than you probably would have looked at. Typical regressions and correlations and that kind of stuff.
Alice Crowder:There probably is. I haven't found it yet. Now. We do use AI and things like optimizing the media by, you know, because that tells you a machine just can do better with, hey, this is getting more engagement. This is getting less engagement. So feed this 1, take it from here and it and it really optimizes your media by nicely. Um, I haven't found it in the development process yet, and it's probably just because. I haven't done it yet and I'm old and set in my ways. Um, certainly AI is being used in a whole lot of places, but right now, um, we're much more. Um, traditional in our idea search and development.
Sandeep Parikh:That's really, I think now speaking of scores and data and metrics and, and all that fun stuff, it's time to pitch your intelligences to the test. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to Alice, I'm going to welcome you officially to the spark tank. This is where, this is the, yeah, this is where two C level marketers. Enter, and one gets battered, fried, and served up for lunch. All right. That's right. This episode is, this episode, this segment is going to be all about the chicken wars. We're talking about that glorious, greasy, glorious time in fast food history when seemingly every restaurant chain under the sun decided to duke it out. Right. For chicken sandwich supremacy. This happened, you know, right, right around the pandemic or a little bit before it started, it was a battle fought with Krispy batter, spicy mayo, and social media savagery. All right. In one corner, we've got Alice Crowder, CMO, Krispy Krunchy Chicken, variable expert in all things chicken. And then CEO Rajiv Parikh, who's no chicken himself, but is too foolhardy to know when he's about to get plucked. Uh, we'll be serving up three statements. Okay. About the chicken wars, two of which are true and one is fake. Okay. So let's see who can sniff out the fake meat from the real stuff and who gets tarred and feathered in the spark tank. Are you guys ready?
Everyone:Ready. Bring it on. Okay.
Sandeep Parikh:All right. Round one. We're set, we're setting the stage. We all know that, that Popeye's fired the first shot with their chicken sandwich and this direct challenge to Chick fil A on socials. And that sparked this chicken sandwich war that created long lines, ridiculous wait times, and enthusiasm bordering on mania. This question or this. Round is all about how the other players in the field reacted. So which of these is the false statement? Uh, 1. KFC sped into the chicken war scene by partnering with rapper Lil Nas X. 2. McDonald's stormed the beaches of the chicken war with the submission that included a surprise new ingredient, spicy pickles. Or 3. Even Taco Bell planted their flag in the war by creating the chicken sandwich taco, partnering with Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito, focused on the chicken sandwich. With a marketing campaign focused on odd pairings, which of these is the false statement three, two, one reveal. Okay. So Alice, you're saying that KFC partnering with little, little Nas X is false. And Rajiv you're saying that spicy pickles is false. Well, guess what? You're both wrong. This crazy idea that I came up with about Arnold and Danny becoming twins and creating a chicken taco sandwich. Uh, it's completely false. It sounded so good, though, that I figured it's
Alice Crowder:probably wrong. I feel like I've seen it.
Rajiv Parikh:It sounds alright. I mean, we see the odd couple, and I've seen them come back and do a redo on it. So I was like, it sounds so good.
Sandeep Parikh:I would do it. There's a mental effect in action, everybody. I'm so glad my pitch fooled you both. Okay, great. Alright, well, so off to a great start. Both of you have zero points. Here we go, round two. At least I have a shot now, I usually lose these. Alright, this one's all about stats around the uh, the chicken wars here. Okay, statement number one. In the first ten days after launching their new chicken sandwich, Popeyes sold an average of a thousand chicken sandwiches per store per day. Statement number two, Popeye's saw their stock price value multiply much higher than their competitors, KFC, Chick fil A, and Wing Stomp. Number three, mentions of Popeye's chicken sandwich during the peak of the social media frenzy reached 25 tweets per minute, including a single tweet from Popeye's in response to Chick fil A that generated more engagement than any Super Bowl ad that year. So, okay. Uh, which one of these is false? Ready? Your answer in three, two, one reveal. Okay. Okay. So Alice, you say one is false. Rajiv, you say two. Guess what? We have someone who's going to get a point this round and wildly. It is Rajiv. Well,
Alice Crowder:yeah,
Sandeep Parikh:yeah.
Alice Crowder:This never happens. I feel like I have to resign now.
Sandeep Parikh:I know, I know you're doing fine, you're doing fine. So yeah, this is wild actually. So it turned out that, uh, Wingstop's stock is actually the, the one that really, that roughly tripled during this period, uh, sort of like a downstream effect of just people being crazy about chicken in general. So other chains like Popeye's did, and McDonald's saw stock prices increase, but they were generally more modest in the range of 10 to 30%. That was a tricky one. Uh, all right. You don't worry, Alice. You got a chance to come back here. Okay. This, this third round is about sort of bizarre and wild stories around the, you'll see what I mean very soon. All right. Statement number one, a man in Tennessee sued Popeye's for 5, 000 for false advertising and deceptive business practices. After repeating, repeatedly failing to get a sandwich and the case settled out of court. Number two, someone tried to sell a Popeye's chicken sandwich on eBay for 10, 000. Okay. That one did not sell, but ones listed in the hundreds of dollars did sell. Number three, the popularity of chicken sandwiches during the wars led to a noticeable surge in the number of people naming their pet chickens Popeye or Chick fil a. Now, two of these are actually true. Here we go. Your answer in three, two, one. Okay. Guess what? Ladies and gentlemen. So Alice has guessed that that one is false. The, the suing Popeye's and Rajeev guess that, uh, three is false. No, no, two. You said, oh, you said two. You said two. Okay. Two is false. The eBay one. Ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a tie because Alice, you, yes, you got it right. It turns out you're, you're back in the game. You're back in the game. Uh, it turns out. A Tennessee man did Sue Popeyes for 5,000, but it did not settle out of court. It, it was thrown out. It was a . It, it did not. So that, so there, there is a guy that did Sue, but it just, he didn't win or anything like that. Um, so Popeyes went,
Rajiv Parikh:Popeyes, refused to buckle down and just write the guy a check.
Sandeep Parikh:Yeah. Yeah. Can you believe that? And then, yeah, someone did list, uh, on eBay for 10, 000 and that one didn't sell. And but people did list and they did sell, usually it was for the meme is what, is what people are finding out. Is that like, how much did they sell? A hundreds? They bought, yeah. Like, like a hundred dollar one and they would, um, apparently sell it. And then, you know, like cancel the order. They probably did it to, for, for social media because I don't think you can deliver a sandwich. So yes. Okay. We've got a tiebreaker. Okay. All right. These are the shenanigans that happen in line. And if you answer the same number, I'm going to force Rajiv to, to pick another number so that we definitely have a definitive winner. Here we go. Number one, a Popeye's employee in Texas was fired for selling a place in line for 30. Number two, someone in Florida attempted to cut in line at a Popeye's by claiming a, to be an undercover police officer. And number three, a couple in Maryland got married in a Popeye's drive thru. Two of these are true, one of these is false. I don't know, they all sound true. They all sound plausible. They all sound plausible. Come on. Alright, ready? Three, two, one. Two one reveal you both said one. Okay. So rajiv you
Rajiv Parikh:got to pick another one. I mean My mom is so good at cutting in lines. So I you know, I just kind of figured like yeah She never sees the line. She just goes to the front. All right, i'm gonna go for
Sandeep Parikh:three Well, guess what? This actually worked out in your favor this time because yes, it's true Rajiv, you got it, right number three is the false one A couple in Maryland didn't get married in a Popeye's drive thru, but Alice, um, it did sound believable because a couple in Maryland got engaged in a Popeye's
Alice Crowder:drive thru. I mean, when I was at Denny's, we had a wedding
Rajiv Parikh:at Denny's. So that means, that's why she thought it was plausible. So much passion for the Grand Slam, wasn't, you had an innovation in there, the Grand Slam.
Alice Crowder:Build your own Grand Slam.
Rajiv Parikh:Build your own Grand Slam. Oh, the Build Your Own Grand Slam. That's very cool. That's very cool. So Alice is definitely like the super marketing promoter innovator.
Alice Crowder:I just like
Sandeep Parikh:food. Well, unfortunately, uh, our, our guests did not win this one. Um, but, uh, don't worry. Rajiv is still a chicken. Okay. Thanks
Rajiv Parikh:for playing. So, uh, if I could ask a couple more questions, I know we're kind of at the end of time. What got you into what, what sparked you to go after marketing and marketing innovation? So while you're sitting there, uh, Acting, you were at Duke and you were working on these great stories, uh, you know, uh, creative writing. What made you say, you know what, I, did you foresee yourself, I'm going to be a CMO innovating for the hot meal segment?
Alice Crowder:Um, no, it's even worse than English major. I was English major with a concentration in poetry and, and then we got my minor in women's studies. So my parents were convinced that I was going to be living in a box down by the river. But when I got out of college and and they were very clear that I wasn't coming home um, one of the things that I could do was write and I got hired as a temp job at a Automotive aftermarket company and the ceo was really small company wanted to write some white papers And and gave me a shot at it and was surprised that I could write and I started just doing writing for him and three months in this is the arrogance and stupidity of a 21 year old he brought me in and said what is it that you want to do with your life? and I still wanted to go to new york and be a writer and have You know scandalous love affairs and have a column and do whatever But um, but I was also watching melrose place the old remember the old melrose play show And uh, and the one of the lead characters was a lady named amanda and she was she ran a marketing shop so I was like, I would like to be a cmo and He said, you know what? I'll give you six months and if you can You Move the needle. I'll increase your salary from 17, 000 And if not, I'll fire you. And we'll just have drinks sometime. Um, and it just worked out from there. And so it's very entrepreneurial and self taught at the beginning of, hey, we need a brochure. Hey, we need a radio commercial. We need some product design. And then when the company was purchased by Pennzoil Quaker State, the gentleman in charge of M& A kind of took me under his wing and gave me the foundational pieces of marketing and started teaching me the theory and then went back and got my MBA and it all kind of just built on itself.
Sandeep Parikh:That's
Rajiv Parikh:fantastic. I love that
Sandeep Parikh:story. Yeah, there's no waste, you know, nothing goes to waste in life, I find. Uh, if you find a way to pull in all your experience and create values, it's very cool. And it's cool that
Rajiv Parikh:you get the serendipity of that in life and something just pops in your way and it just catches your energy. Yeah. I think in, in our earlier questionnaire, we asked you to name a historical event or movement that inspires you. And you mentioned aviator, Beryl Markham. What about her lights you up?
Alice Crowder:I read her autobiography. Gosh, when I was in college, it's called West with the night. Um, first of all, beautifully written. Hemingway once said that he, that reading her work made him feel like an amateur. He was just disgusted with himself after he read her, but she had this life. Where whatever came in front of her she grabbed it so, uh, her mother died young. Her father moved her to Africa where he worked out in the bush, farming and raising horses. So she grew up with them aside, children, hunting lions and, um, and and being part of the tribe. She went on from there to raise racehorses, um, for, uh, and train racehorses for folks in Africa. And then planes were just coming to Africa. She learned how to fly. She was the first person to fly across continents, um, in addition to being the first woman and was able to communicate those experiences with such a, a high and beautiful command of the language and the experience. But I always thought, wow, to just. No matter where life puts you, like, figure it out and raise it to an art level. I mean, what better future could you hope for?
Sandeep Parikh:Right. It's like, choose the most audacious thing you could do. Yeah,
Alice Crowder:and do it beautifully.
Rajiv Parikh:Okay, so how about this one? If money was no object, what would you do for an alternate job in an alternate universe?
Alice Crowder:I would write. I would get a little flat somewhere where I could walk around and see really cool stuff to inspire me and, and I would try to bring those experiences and that beauty to a wider audience through, through written work.
Sandeep Parikh:Do you ever write in your spare time? Do you ever get your novel cooking on?
Alice Crowder:Not as much as I used to, but, um, it is, it's a way of centering my mind. It calmed me. Um, so a lot of times, especially if there's something I want to process, I'll just sit down and try to make a poem out of it or story out of it or, or something, because it helps me. Kind of put it to bed, because once you've captured the language, there's this poem by Audrey and Rich diving into the wreck, and I keep the, I keep a segment of it on my computer, and it says something like words or purposes, words or maps, uh, I came to see the damage that was done, but also the treasure that prevailed, and I think that the process of writing and dissecting your experiences and figuring out What combination of of wreck and treasure you have is just it's the best of puzzle solving I love that. I love
Sandeep Parikh:that Yeah, I just as you just as you figure out the combination of spicy mayo and Krispy chicken and Exactly.
Alice Crowder:100 percent. Yes
Rajiv Parikh:I I must say I I relate to you in the same way. I I am whenever i'm most stressed or down or In dealing with a difficult situation, the best thing is to sit down and write, and, and whoever would read those writings would say, this guy's nuts, he's ranting and raving, but actually, it actually gets you to think through your thoughts, process your thoughts, and then there's that turnaround moment, just like any other story, just like a story where you're like, there's a conflict, and then you, how do you get through it? And that comes out in the writing after writing about it,
Alice Crowder:it's like cleaning up your room, right? You go into a mess. And you slowly get it put into something useful or at least finished and you can put it on the shelf and move on.
Sandeep Parikh:That's right. There's a hygiene to it. There's like a mental hygiene tip to
Alice Crowder:doing it.
Rajiv Parikh:So Alice, I was, yeah, I was inspired by, uh, talking with you today. I love great CMOs like yourself. You really, you teach us a lot and I like how you get involved in the product. So deeply in the product as much or more than the promotion, right? Cause the product really drives everything, the entire experience. And I just love that. I love that about you. So I really enjoy meeting with you today and talking with you. My, no, my listeners will learn a ton from you.
Alice Crowder:Well, it's been a delight. Thank you guys so much. Really appreciate the time and letting me talk about my favorite subject, which is my delicious chicken.
Rajiv Parikh:All right. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the pod, please take a moment to rate it and comment. You can find us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and everywhere
Sandeep Parikh:podcasts can be found. This show is produced by Sandeep Shah, production assistance by Taryn Talley, and edited by Sean Maher and Aiden
Rajiv Parikh:McGarvey.
Sandeep Parikh:I'm your host, Rajiv
Rajiv Parikh:Parikh from Position Squared, a top notch growth marketing company based in Silicon Valley. Come visit us at position2. com.
Sandeep Parikh:This has been an effin funny production.
Rajiv Parikh:We'll catch you next time. And remember folks, be ever curious.