Spark of Ages
In every episode, we interview B2B Marketing leaders, executives, and innovators about their successes and challenges, asking them how they broke through and what spark in their careers took them to the next level.
Spark of Ages
Network Like a Ninja (How to Grow Your Career)/Susan Hailey, Jean Kovacs, Shannon Lundgren - Jobs, Mentors, Old Boys Club ~ Spark of Ages Ep 33
We share transformative insights on leveraging your network for career growth. Our guests Susan Hailey (CHRO @ Enable), Shannon Lundgren (Founder & CEO @Shannon's Circle) and Jean Kovacs ( share how to navigate personal branding effectively and develop meaningful connections that elevate your career potential.
• Networking should focus on building relationships, not just asking for favors
• Strategies to engage your network authentically without asking for jobs
• The distinction between mentorship and sponsorship, emphasizing sponsorship importance
• Tactics for making positive first impressions during networking events
• The importance of giving more than you take in networking
Discover the transformative power of networking in our engaging episode, where we explore innovative strategies for career advancement. Join us as we dive into enriching discussions with leading professionals who share their invaluable insights on how to leverage connections to unlock potential and growth. Our guests tackle common misconceptions about networking, explaining how to engage authentically with your network, and why mentoring and sponsorship are crucial for success, especially for women.
Unpack the key tactics to stand out in competitive job markets, including how to make memorable first impressions without resorting to rehearsed pitches. Also, expect tips on navigating both in-person and online networking effectively. By the end of this episode, you'll gain a fresh perspective on your networking approach, creating lasting relationships designed for success.
Ready to elevate your career? Tune in, and if you resonate with our insights, please subscribe, share, and leave a review to help others find their way to their own career transformations!
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Rajiv Parikh: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajivparikh/
Sandeep Parikh: https://www.instagram.com/sandeepparikh/
Susan Hailey: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susanlyonhailey/
Susan Hailey is the Chief Human Resource Officer at Enable. With over 20 years of experience as a senior HR and talent executive, Susan has a proven track record of leading all aspects of human capital and talent for high-growth organizations. Before joining Enable, Susan was the Vice President of Global Talent Acquisition at OpenText, where her leadership earned the company recognition as one of Forbes’ Best Places to Work in 2022.
Jean Kovacs: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jean-kovacs/
Jean Kovacs is a Partner at Hillsven Venture Capital, a seed venture capital fund focused on the enterprise B2B space. Jean is also the Co-President of the HBS Alumni Angels Association of Northern California and her resume includes serving as CEO and Co-Founder of Comergent Technologies, and Co-Founder and EVP of Qualix Group. Jean was named to the Silicon Valley/San Francisco Business Journal’s list of Most Influential Women in Business.
Shannon Lundgren : https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannonlundgren/
Shannon Lundgren is the Founder & CEO of Shannon's Circle Matchmaking. Shannon pivoted from a successful corporate career, including a 16-year tenure at Wells Far
Website: https://www.position2.com/podcast/
Rajiv Parikh: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajivparikh/
Sandeep Parikh: https://www.instagram.com/sandeepparikh/
Email us with any feedback for the show: spark@postion2.com
Hello and welcome to the Spark of Ages podcast. We have a special roundtable discussion today, and this time we're going to talk about navigating your career journey with the help of others Essentially leveraging your network to climb to the next rung of your ladder and how doing so may allow you to unlock your potential. And we have really awesome guests today. They're really good friends of mine. We're going to make it like one of our board meetings. So I have Susan Haley, who is the Chief Human Resource Officer at Enable. She has over 20 years experience as a senior HR and talent executive. Susan has a proven track record of leading all aspects of human capital and talent for high growth organizations. Before joining Enable, susan was the vice president of global talent acquisition at OpenText, where her leadership earned the company recognition as one of the Forbes best places to work in 2022. Hi, susan. Hi.
Speaker 1:We have Gene Kovach. Gene Kovach is a partner at Hills Bend Venture Capital, a seed venture capital firm focused on the enterprise B2B space. Jean is also the co-president of the HBS Alumni Association of Northern California and her resume includes CEO and co-founder of Commergent Technologies, which she sold to AT&T. Yes, that's right, that's right. And she's a co-founder and EVP of the Qualics Group. Jean was named the Silicon Valley San Francisco Business Journal's list of most influential women in business. And finally we have Shannon Lundgren, who is the founder and CEO of Shannon's Circle Matchmaking. Shannon pivoted from a successful corporate career, including a 16-year tenure at Wells Fargo where she oversaw the digital experience for WellsFargocom. She left to pursue her passion for matchmaking. Shannon is a well-recognized expert on modern love making connections, and marriages among the intellectually curious Apparently resulted in many, many children being born. So welcome Shannon, susan, jean All three of you are fellow MBA graduates of the Harvard Business School.
Speaker 1:Susan is the chair of the Northern California HBS Alumni Club and both she and Gene are on the Global Alumni Club, so I have a very strong group. And really what motivated me to have this today was I went to a session where they were talking about the strategy and science of influence. That was a recent event that we had with Alison Fregat and Heidi Rosen, and I was, like you know. I have folks that I know that are just rock stars at building career and can give us so much advice. And I was like you know. I have folks that I know that are just rock stars at building career and can give us so much advice, and so that's why I thought we'd have you here. So one of the key takeaways I think you can get from this episode is that we'll talk about innovative strategies and networking as a form of personal development, how to engage your network in alternative ways to unlock career opportunities, how to make memorable and positive impact on recruiters and hiring managers through networking and tactics women can utilize as they break into leadership positions.
Speaker 2:So thank you and welcome.
Speaker 1:It's great to be here. All right, there's so much going on in the world right now. There's so much going on with technology as well as how to build up who you are and where you're going, so I'll just jump right to a few topics. So let's talk about networking. Many feel uncomfortable asking their network for help. What are some alternative ways to engage your network without explicitly asking for a job or favor, and still unlock career opportunities? So, susan, you want to start?
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah thanks, it's only your world. Yeah, Thank you, Arziv, I appreciate it. Oh yeah, this is a great question and it's a really good topic and I think to feel really comfortable, I think asking your network for help is to be the person who has been giving a lot of help along the way. I also think it's really important to never keep score. Always make sure you're giving more than you're getting. That way, when you are in a situation where you're looking for something, it really never feels like uncomfortable because you know your bucket side is full because you've been doing this along the way. It also puts you in a position of being someone that people come to for advice and helps you increase all the pluses in your column, so to speak. But don't keep track, because the minute you start keeping track it kind of messes up the whole karma of getting things from your network, so to speak. So I think you know, keep your network really close by and always be doing things to enrich other people in your network.
Speaker 2:Other thoughts. Susan, I love your answer about the more you do to help others, the more it's all going to even out and come back, and I also think there are ways to ask for help and ways not I mean looking at a person who might be in a position to help you and figuring out if what you want is going to benefit that person as well, and never feeling that you're owed anything, because none of us, no matter how much we've done, we're not owed anything. It's just what can we all do to elevate ourselves and our teams and the people in our own bits?
Speaker 4:I'd build on that and add that people want to be helpful, they want to be asked, and so sometimes we get really focused on ourselves and feeling bad about asking someone, but we're arguably depriving them of an opportunity to feel good and to have a psychic reward of giving back. So we think about them. Think about also, when you do ask them, how can you help them in offering that? And I'd also say, give them a hook. I'm oftentimes asked just for general help. I'm interested in a role in marketing or product management and.
Speaker 4:I need a little bit more to help them, such as oh, I see you're connected to Jane Doe at such and such company. Can you provide an intro because I'm looking to break into that company? Or do you know anyone at this company? That helps me a little bit. Versus oh, I'm just in my job search.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If somebody just comes up to you out of the blue and says, yeah, I need a job, can you help me? You're like ah. You got to give me something right. You have to give me something to work with. I like your point. You know the point about keeping score right. It's hard to go in literally like write down and think about how you're going to help every single person. It can be really painful.
Speaker 4:I'd also add there's people that are connectors and there's people that aren't in their factory settings, and so know that some people, even closest friends I would actually make sure you go outside your close friend network and weak ties are great, but remember not everyone is going to have that factory setting of connection and some will have it full tilt and those are the people that are going to be the best connectors. So just really know that and it's okay if some people don't do anything and nothing happens, they're probably not a connector type.
Speaker 1:Well, I like that point. Yeah, there's some people who just live for that. I think all of you are sort of like that, right, shannon? Isn't that who you are? You're like the super connector.
Speaker 4:All of us are.
Speaker 2:I don't think of myself as the connector, but I do passionately believe that the more we can help others, especially other women or people entering a workforce, the more it elevates all of us. And if that means connecting or whatever we can do, Okay, so let me do this.
Speaker 1:So what was that? This came out of Malcolm Gladwell right, there's the connector, the maven, the seller, salesperson right, I think there was three. And he described the Paul Revere thing and why Paul Revere was more successful than the other guy that was riding the horse right, Because Revere was the ultimate connector. So where would you put yourselves?
Speaker 2:Okay, which Malcolm Gladwell book would you start? Oh, now you're quizzing me on the book, but I'm not sure that I. Okay, so I remember this was the one I thinking me on the book. I'm kind of sure, but I'm not sure that I'm.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I remember. This was the one I think we're all the best. This was the one I think about the 10,000 hours right, oh, yeah, yeah it was outliers.
Speaker 1:So if you put 10,000 hours into something, you're like the expert. And I think he went into this whole notion of well, there's three types of people and of well, there's three types of people, and of course he overgeneralizes. So there's the connector type and Shannon kind of triggered this, triggered the thought, like there's the person that is a connector or super connector and that's what they thrive on. And then there's a type of person you bump into that is the maven. They're an expert in a particular field and that's what they thrive on. I thought it was kind of weird that he had the notion of a salesperson, the one that just likes to promote something. If you were to take yourself, what would you consider yourselves If you were to pick only one? For me, a connector. Shannon's a connector. She does this as a business.
Speaker 2:So for me, I think I'd have to say a salesperson.
Speaker 3:I was going to guess the maven yeah, I'm a maven, I'm a maven.
Speaker 1:Ah, you have to know everything about your field Is that what it is.
Speaker 3:I like being deep in a thing that I'm interested in. Expert.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 2:And I like being more of a generalist.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Interesting, so now you have one of each of us. I know.
Speaker 4:And what are you?
Speaker 2:Rajiv.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how are you Rajiv? Yeah, I would say I started my career as a salesperson. I always wanted to be a maven, but I'd say I'm more of a connector and I enjoy it. I enjoy every part of it. My greatest thrill is in connecting people together. I think I get the biggest thrill when people I put together actually do something together. That's great. I got another question. This is, many view networking as a means to an end focusing on their immediate career gains and I think, Susan, you kind of touched on this how can professionals shift that personality to be networking, if you will, I mean we have people that are more introverted, people that are more extroverted.
Speaker 3:I tend to see the more extroverted people enjoying getting to know new people and adding them to their network, if you will. I think that might be a little bit more challenging for introverted people, not always, I mean, those are huge generalizations anyway, but I think for the usage of a network I mean the way you quote I think that's the question that you asked, rajiv yeah, how do you?
Speaker 3:kind of incorporate that, how do you use it and how do you build it? You know, I think you really should be focused on doing things that you like and things that you know are in an area that you're interested in. So for me, one of the reasons I love the Harvard Network is because I like business, I like commercial discussions, I like learning about industries, I like learning about new technologies. So for me, networking is about meeting people who are in the middle of those things, and at any level too. I mean, they don't have to be an expert for me to be interested in getting to know them. I can just be. You know, I met somebody at an event the other night and she started her career in the virtual reality space and obviously that kind of went its own way and probably you'll find a new life in a different form, but it was kind of really interesting to me. You know that that's how she started her career.
Speaker 3:And then again, for me personally, I just am interested in people's stories. I find that interesting. For me it's just really genuine and I tend to really like building relationships with people, getting to know them better. It's pretty natural for me to do what I do on the network side. It turns out it's been really good professionally for me because of the sector that I've focused on. It really helps.
Speaker 3:I was on a call today and we're doing a reference on a candidate. You know, I know the head of HR at the company from before and you know that wasn't the thing that anybody thought might be a possibility. So just it shows up in ways that can be incredibly helpful. But I'm also the kind of person that loves to get things done. I think that's the maven part of me where the networking is almost a means to the end to getting things done. I happen to like it, but in and of itself, if it doesn't get an outcome like if somebody doesn't get a job that I connected them to or not that I'm unhappy about that, but I'm always like so what's the end game? Where does the value get created in making that connection?
Speaker 1:I think one of the reasons for the question is that sometimes you only hear from folks when they're looking for something or looking for a job. Right, I've had CMOs various CMOs call me and the only time they call me is when they're looking for a consulting work, and I know what they're about. They're not there to necessarily talk to me. They're there because I can put them into something. When I think about the notion of networking, it's like this is part of living. I think this is part of like you want to have a relationship with someone before you need them.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think of it as like a garden You're planting seeds and some are going to sprout, some aren't going to sprout, and you nurture it over time and they always the famous quote your network is your net worth. But I also think it's something that you're not attached to, meaning that it is different when you go into a networking event and we've all been there at a conference and people are coming at you trying to sell you or get you to buy something and that feels really that's where networking gets a bad rap. Right, it's when we're not attached, when we're wanting something and it's graspy energy. And so back to kind of where you're mentioning personal development. Dig into that and I have had to work on that really hard because I've learned sales as a function of my entrepreneurial career and I'm really focused on not being attached to the results and making sure that my activities.
Speaker 4:There's a halo effect. I know it's. I know great things are going to happen, but it's not as if it has to happen with you or has to happen with this, and I think that's detachment to a result is key. So that's where, as Susan was mentioning, you want to build it in advance so you're not attached to a specific outcome with a certain individual on the spot, but you've created this garden and multiple people you can choose from. I always think about it that way. It's like there's not just one person that can help you, there's many. And how do you get that help? And not single thread it with just attachment to one outcome. So that was something else.
Speaker 4:Part about introverts is really huge, single threaded with just, you know, attachment to one outcome. So that was something else. And the part about introverts is really huge. I do encounter that in my work, especially as relates to dating, and I think for introverts they do like smaller groups. So instead of going into that big mammoth, you know event with lots of people that probably Susan, Jean and I or GVU be comfortable with, you, go to something smaller and that'll be much more comfortable and probably people with the same type of expertise that you can really click with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd like to add to that. You know that the term networking can mean so many things to so many people, ranging from the huge cocktail party type thing where you go to and we all have been to those and we've all ended up talking to two people because you couldn't break away. And you know so, as I was thinking back on my career, some of the things that really helped me not just smaller networking groups, but getting involved in things that I was passionate in. For example, you know, when I was doing Commergent, that was a lot of work, but I said to myself I'm going to serve on one nonprofit board that I'm passionate about. And when I think back to the other people who were on that board you know, founder of Twitter, you know we were all sort of just figuring it out, but we were all passionate about this area and they got to see me work and got to know me and I got to see them work and we have a relationship.
Speaker 2:So networking doesn't necessarily mean you have to go out and, you know, go to cocktail parties. It could even be. I mean, when I first moved to Silicon Valley, I worked for Sun Microsystems, like that was. Most people don't even know who they are now, sadly, you would not believe how many Sun alumni that are out doing fantastic things in all different areas. That, because you know I was well respected there and I worked hard and other, you know you get to know people and so there's all these networks that, if you sit back and think about it, it's not just, oh, let's go to the global networking night and have a cocktail, it's what are you doing, every aspect of your job and your career and even things that augment your job, like nonprofits.
Speaker 1:I love that because it's really talking about how people get to know you right. It's one thing when you meet someone in the two second or 10 second, you have 30 seconds to make an impression and it's another when they're actually working with you on a project. So, jean, I mean you do this with founders, right? You try to figure out how it works for a founder, how should they play it, or how have you seen it played best?
Speaker 2:You know it's really tough as a founder. It's always hard because when you're starting, you really feel every minute that you're not spending. Focusing on your objectives of growing the company and building a team is a minute not well spent. And that's why I think, sort of sliding things in under the guise like some of the best people that I know now are people that I interviewed that weren't right for one of my companies that I've just stayed in touch with. You know we hooked up on LinkedIn. And next thing, you know, you know they're contacting me or you know. So I think, just being aware you know you know they're contacting me or you know. So I think, just being aware you know.
Speaker 2:And again, going back to Susan's thing, not people that you think, oh, they're going to be able to help me at some point in time, just because they're good people. And you know the next thing you know I had a case where someone then became a very senior person at Google, which was someone who I trusted and got neat that I'd never worked with. So I do think, being open under the guise of continuing, because you know you have VCs who are constantly looking how's it going? How's it going? How's it going. They don't want to hear that. Oh yeah, I had a founder who joined a bus full of people to go drive to a prison and help the prisoners for two days and I was like, wow, that's interesting. And it turned out, it was fantastic for him and he made some really good contacts. But so you know, there's always that fun line.
Speaker 1:So if you're a founder and you have, like you said, you have limited time, you have to nail so many things, how do you build it so that, when you do contact the VCs, they know something about you? Because you tend to invest in the person that you trust the most right, because you're investing in teams, you're a person that can run a great team.
Speaker 2:So I think that is absolutely critical. And you hear these things where people go and they'll do like a coffee. You know they'll get together with a bunch of VCs and reach out and VCs, you know they'll spend time. I mean, but there's only you only have five days a week that you can have coffee. Maybe you have seven, but you know there's only so much that you can do. So I do think again, constantly thinking about what is that person doing? One of our initial investments I put her name into another VC was looking for women CEOs for a panel and she got her name as a panelist and became part of the efforts here and then ended up raising money from the venture capitalists, like two years later. So you know, being open to opportunities like that is also a very good thing.
Speaker 1:Shannon, I have one for you. In the context of matchmaking, doing a do-over can rescue a poorly executed first date. How can professionals apply the do-over concept to men damaged or underutilized networking relationships?
Speaker 4:So the do-overs, this is fun. This happens, you know, people go on a first date and, for whatever reason, they don't click and the other person really regrets, like, oh, I really should have shown some more enthusiasm and they want to a month later come back. And this has happened where, you know, even past clients have gone back to first dates that I've set them up with and said I really would like to do another first date again In the realm of networking. I don't think it has to be that formal, because but I think, knowing that sometimes we reject ourselves before we, you know people don't think that hard about what might've get muffed up unless it was very serious. So I always take the you know, assume best intent, reach out to that person, follow up.
Speaker 4:Guess what? Most people are busy and I found you know, follow up, follow up. Follow up is kind of like so key just doesn't mean nagging, but just it's not just a one and done. If someone hasn't responded in a week, you just bump it up and say, oh, just looping back on this one's a good time to connect for you and making it easy for them. So I think, having that confidence that it's not blown if a bridge is really burned, you know, of course, then you know it's serious and you don't go back to that. But I do think that people regenerate and good faith, and if you've got a really good reputation, I think people are always open to reconnecting and starting anew. So I think, less focus on the past, more focus on the future and also, once again, if you're always coming to them for your needs, then it's probably not going to be well received. But how do you kind of, you know, breathe that in advance at goodwill Any?
Speaker 1:other thoughts on a do-over, how you decided to do over Susan Jean, or you've seen it done.
Speaker 2:You're talking about in a business context, not a dating concept, yeah, I have. I mean, I think in the business case it's just being open and honest. You know, I'm really sorry. My parents were in the hospital and I just I didn't have my head on straight that day and you know I'd love to continue the conversation. And if the person says no, then that's, you know, like take that and move on. That will send better signals and stronger signals than if you, you know, bake right.
Speaker 2:But life happens to all of us, and especially in technology. You know, when you're not 8 to 5, you're 7 to 24, you know life is going to interfere every now and then and if something happens people are often way more able to deal with it. I mean, I just this week had a CEO who had food poisoning and you know, texted everyone and we ended up having the meeting, the Zoom, two days later and you know we spent five minutes. Everyone had to say when they had food poisoning. But you know there was a little bit of bonding and she felt better, and you know, and we all moved on.
Speaker 2:So don't shy away from being human.
Speaker 4:Yeah, this happened to me the other night. It was at a networking event, not food poisoning.
Speaker 4:No, not the food poisoning, but the faux pas. You know, it's one of those situations where you're meeting all these people, you hear the person's name in a loud room and it honestly went in one ear out the other, and then someone else comes up and I need to introduce him to her in one ear out the other. And then someone else comes up and I need to introduce him to her and I didn't know his name and you know I knew that didn't fare well. What I did afterwards is, I made sure, connecting with him on LinkedIn and just said, oh, it's so great to meet, you Use his name and all that. It's just also being conscious of how you might have a faux pas. You don't have to underscore it, but try to reach out and reconnect versus view it as a blown opportunity. Exactly that's cool, exactly.
Speaker 1:All right, susan, I got a question for you. Sure, given that first impressions are critical, what unconventional approaches can job seekers use to make memorable and a positive impact on recruiters and hiring managers beyond the standard elevator?
Speaker 3:pitch. You know this is where the power of a network is so important, because you know a cold outreach, you know, is typically not going to get any attention. You know, it's just that's kind of human nature, at least for me. And I think where I am much more inclined in fact I am 100% inclined to helping someone I don't know is if they've been introduced by someone in my network, no matter how you know close gets you the job, but it's the person you know whose brother's, sister-in-law's, cousin happens to have an opportunity and you don't know that person from Adam but your network person is introducing you to that opportunity. So that's sort of the theory of weak ties or weak ties. So I think it is always better to have an introduction if you don't know somebody, and then it's sort of on you at a networking event or in whatever activity you're doing, to build your network with people that are in areas that might have interest for you or do have interest for you and again, not being so calculated about it, because everybody can sense calculated networking and it just feels inauthentic and it doesn't feel very comfortable. So I think you know, and I always advise people you know, especially young people you know to you know here. I'll connect with you on LinkedIn. Is there anyone anywhere in my network that you somehow know? Because that way, and if it's in an area that you're interested in, you know, I'll introduce you to anybody. I don't even need to know them that well, but I'd be happy to do that.
Speaker 3:And to your point, shannon, about not being too worried about the outcome of it, I think yeah. So I think that it is actually something. It's just people are too busy, especially in the worlds that we live in, to respond to people they literally don't know. I mean just, you know, and I get it all the time, as you can imagine, with the work that I do, and I used to and I mean years ago, when I wasn't at this level or what have you I did spend some time on it, but it generally didn't go well. You know what I mean. It's like the person was kind of like why? And I would look back on my own investment of time and go why did I do that, like you know.
Speaker 2:so there is something about those, you know, warm introductions and they don't even have to be super warm, but just slightly warm. That, I think, are more the ones that are going to get responded to and make a connection. You know, and with that first meeting was you talking about making a connection or making an impression? Go with the moment, like, you know, if you're late because there's a huge traffic accident, apologize, but you know talk or the weather's horrible Talk, you know, and the next time you reach out to that person you can say I was the person that came in, my umbrella had, you know, broken.
Speaker 2:Or I had a guy in France who lived on the same, his street name was the same as mine and like 20 years later he reached out and he said this is Pascal, I live on, you know, and I immediately remember, just because we'd had like a few minutes, a few discussion, a little discussion of something different. So don't feel you have to come into that first meeting and you have an agenda like let discussion of something different. So don't feel you have to come into that first meeting and you have an agenda Like let go of the flow just a little bit and be comfortable in yourself.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I like what you're saying about being comfortable in yourself, because it's ultimately when it really gets muffed up is when we get self-conscious and we're in our own head. It's like how do you start to think about and I loved what susan said earlier about being curious about them is like think about them and get out of your own mind so that you're focused on really connecting and seeing that person and being authentic. That energy is going to show through, versus something that where you're just trying to say the right things, the same old how are you doing, you know, where do you, where do you work, and all that stuff. So something that really feels like the energy is exciting or vital or real.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it always helps to come in with something. There's a hook, it's genuine, it feels like today and they'll always remember you and you always. When you meet someone for the first time or you meet them out of context and you look clueless when you first meet them, you need that hook to get back in with someone, right? So it's a, it's a thing.
Speaker 2:It works really well, and you know, rashid, you can't plan that hook Like, you can't say like it has to be the thing that happened. It has to be improv, right, absolutely, it has to be improv. Yeah, I heard Stanford's now teaching an improv in business class and I think we probably all had to do that on our own, but it's a fascinating concept.
Speaker 1:I did that actually. We had this in a CEO group. We had an improv comedian come in. Actually, my co-host for this is an improv comedian, sandeep, and it's really just talking.
Speaker 2:It's the yes and thing.
Speaker 1:So right. It's when improv is all about when you walk in the room and someone says something ridiculous and you got to go with it. You can't criticize it, Right? So you just have to. You have to build on it, and that's the fun, right? If somebody says something ridiculous, well, you say something that builds on the ridiculousness.
Speaker 2:That's right, and that's what we're waiting for in this podcast, rajiv.
Speaker 1:We're getting there, here we go. Expectations are high. Jean, by the way, who, when she ran the HBS Alumni Club events, raised the most money out of anyone in history, is now making our podcast stand out. So okay, here we go. Spark of Ages opinions about career development and networking tactics in 2025. So here we go. Spark of Ages Opinions About Career Development and Networking Tactics in 2025. So here we go. Instead of asking you questions, I'm going to make a statement and you're just going to agree, disagree or give me one line. So here we go. Networking events are a colossal waste of time. They're filled with people trying to sell themselves, not genuinely connect.
Speaker 2:Oh, can we do this?
Speaker 3:No, you got to go. I disagree. Shannon disagrees, I disagree too.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. Well, I'm going to like sometimes agree because they can be. I mean, if you have a lot of work to do, to go to an event that has a ton of people, maybe I'm the introvert, you guys, she's an introvert. Oh my God, no, no, I don't know, but I'm going to agree with that.
Speaker 1:Okay, maybe not as strongly, but I think it's really hard to go an event that's just about networking, yeah, but I go anyways.
Speaker 2:All right next one.
Speaker 1:Next one Online networking is essential, but it can't replace the value of in-person connections. Building trust and rapport requires face-to-face interaction, especially for senior level roles.
Speaker 3:I agree, I disagree. Disagree I disagree too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I disagree. You don't need to be. You don't need face-to-face interaction.
Speaker 4:I would have had a different answer six years ago, but post-pandemic. I think I've been able to really leverage connection and I have created babies with people I haven't even met. How many babies Shannon.
Speaker 1:This past year. Do you have the baby-o-meter?
Speaker 4:I definitely have had a lot of babies this past 12 months, so I definitely have counted four. But yeah, so I think I would have had a different answer in the past. I do think you can build trust digitally.
Speaker 1:Without. Okay. And why would you have said, why have things changed? Oh, just the advent. I mean not just COVID, but the advent.
Speaker 4:Yeah, just the advent of Zoom and all the other ways to connect I think has really made it much more able to look at someone's. I do think face-to-face does make you know is huge and you still can read a lot of signals and a lot of things by someone's face and create that connection even though you're not there physically with them.
Speaker 1:All right. So, jean, have you funded someone just off of Zoom.
Speaker 2:No, but I know VCs who have and have been incredibly successful. Typically, that's in a case where there might be other investors who have, so you hear those stories all the time. But honestly, it's almost more work to maintain an online presence. I look at young people just starting their careers now and I think the amount of time they have to spend to just create and maintain their online presence is astronomical. So I do think that takes a lot of work, but still, to me, there's something about shaking someone's hand and sitting down for a cup of coffee.
Speaker 2:All right, susan, what do?
Speaker 3:you got? Oh, I mean, I've hired so many C-level executives without having ever met them in person.
Speaker 1:Without having meeting them With huge, but you got opinions from other people.
Speaker 2:The person that you were hiring. So you're hiring a CXO for a CEO. Has the CEO met the CXO that you're hiring Well?
Speaker 3:during COVID.
Speaker 3:no, you know so that's where it all started.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't have ever thought like Shannon, I would never have thought that that would be possible before COVID, but when it became a necessity, you know, we through an online or a, you know, zoom type connection, but I don't know.
Speaker 3:I think we spend a lot of time in these types of settings now, and I think we also get more clues than maybe we would have been attuned to when we're in these settings that give us a little more pattern recognition on whether or not the person either is worthy of my network or worthy of a second interview or whatnot. So, yeah, I think I mean. I do agree, though, that there is nothing better than meeting somebody in person, and I would also say that, after having done so much work online in several companies, now it is such a joy to meet somebody in person that I've been working with online for, in some cases, years, literally years, and then I get to meet them in person that I've been working with online for, in some cases, years, literally years, and then I get to meet them in person and it's like they already feel like a really good colleague or even a friend, but I never would have expected that, and that's kind of a new thing that we're all kind of experiencing. All right, I got a few more.
Speaker 1:Mentorship is overrated. True career advancement comes from strategic self-promotion, not relying on the generosity of others.
Speaker 3:Disagree.
Speaker 1:Why One sentence? Why?
Speaker 3:The sentence I would add is that you know it takes two to tango and you're never going to get that opportunity if there isn't somebody there and not even helping you. In fact, I don't love the word mentor. To be honest, I'm a much bigger fan of sponsoring. I think that gets at my get it done mentality. Like you know, mentoring is I can sort of advise or coach or whatever, and I don't mind, and I don't think any of us mind doing that. Where I think it matters is sponsoring people, like really making the connection, saying I remember there was a leader I used to work with and, oh my gosh, she was hilarious. She'd be like okay, here's the deal, you are now going to go meet this person and this is this job, and you know, and it was really sponsorship, it wasn't well, maybe you could think about this or maybe it was like here are all the things you need to do and yeah, that's what I just I think there's a big difference there and if you're just self-promoting yourself, you know that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I disagree too, because the strategic self-promotion backfires, that's just. Everyone sees through that ultimately and you can't build relationships just, you know, thumping your own chest.
Speaker 2:Right, so it's mentorship is overrated. That's what you're just.
Speaker 1:That's what we're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I would disagree with that. I think mentoring or sponsoring or whatever, just being a sounding board for someone who might not have the experience that you've had that you can be totally open and honest with, can be hugely helpful for that person. And again, it's you know, the more you elevate the team, the more you you get elevated.
Speaker 1:And so I like it All right. Next question the old boys club is alive and well. While lip surface is paid to inclusivity, real career advancement still often depends on who you know within those circles, not in high tech.
Speaker 2:So I would disagree in high tech Definitely. Disagree in high tech Definitely.
Speaker 1:Disagree in high tech. Yeah, I disagree with the tech bros notion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, especially in small companies, which you know. I mean, I worked AT&T, bought my last company and I worked at AT&T for a year and a half, so that's a different story. But in the small companies I always felt in Silicon Valley you could be purple skinned and have two heads If you could get the job done. People were going to respect you and you know, I do hear stories where people feel that they were discriminated against, but not as much these days. I really do feel it's more merit-based, at least what I'm experiencing.
Speaker 4:I disagree. I don't have as much context in Jean's world, but I do think that there is. I get to see it in my world and I think, unfortunately, there's a lot of inherent bias that we all have. We get familiar with who we're familiar with and it can be hard for someone who isn't quote unquote like us to break in. Oh, wait.
Speaker 1:So then you're agreeing that it's alive and well.
Speaker 4:Well, what was the statement? I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:The old boys club is alive and well.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:All right, I like that diversity of opinion. Susan, it's alive and well. It's alive and well. You work with a lot of big tech companies.
Speaker 3:It's very alive and very. I mean and part of it is you said it, shannon I mean people are busy, they think they've got perfect pattern recognition, so it's very, and then they and their pattern recognition is limited to what they know and what's comfortable. They don't often have the time to take to try to develop a new neural network with somebody that's different from what they know.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how would you break through? Give me one tip on how a person would break through that club.
Speaker 3:Well, I think maybe it's a little bit what Jean was saying. You find volunteer activities where you get to know these people and you get in front of them, and there is, I mean, I think it's still mostly an old boys' network. I actually think it's worse than it used to be. To be honest, I've been in tech longer than probably all of you, because I'm older than all of you, starting at IBM before there were PCs. You can't use the age thing.
Speaker 3:Come on. Well, I can, because it was better. It was really better back then because a lot of the companies were really putting the effort into bringing women into the workforce and African-Americans. And you know, especially IBM was amazing at it. And the longer I've been in that, the more I mean. You look at the statistics on venture capital. I mean what is it? 95% men, white men, like that's a pretty big old boys network, or young boys network, as it were.
Speaker 2:So I do think, though, rishi, when you talk about how do you get around it, if it is prevalent or you're feeling it as someone trying to break in, focus on the results. I mean, you know, if you've constantly doubled the revenue goals, or you introduced a product in six months that was originally scheduled, or you built something, hopefully you'll get some kind of credibility based on that. So if someone is choosing someone because of pattern recognition and you've outperformed at least hopefully there's cognitive memories that they're doing this.
Speaker 1:I love that. So focus on something you can do, that you can show an objective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that you've done. Even if it's your first job out of school, you have track records of doing something.
Speaker 1:Okay, I have one more, and then we're going to go to the game.
Speaker 2:You mean this wasn't the game.
Speaker 1:Wait till you see the game.
Speaker 4:The truth in the dare we're going to amp it up with the game.
Speaker 1:All right, here's the last one. The best career advice isn't about what to do, but how to think. Mentors should focus on cultivating critical thinking and problem-solving skills. Maybe sponsors should Not just offering specific instructions.
Speaker 2:Totally agree. Totally agree, agree.
Speaker 1:Agree, okay.
Speaker 4:I'd also add to that even not just all of the things you said, but also mindset around knowing you're heading for a goal. You absolutely know you're going to reach it. You definitely don't know how you're going to get there, but you're clear, you're going to get there. And training your mind to think like an athlete, an Olympic athlete like you know, this is as good as done and you're, you know, open to the different paths of how to get there, but that is something I wish I'd learned 30 years ago.
Speaker 1:What's a technique you use to help you with that? Do you write it down and then just remind yourself every day? Do you build on it every day? How do you do it?
Speaker 4:You become aware Well, definitely writing down where you're going, coming up with your top three things you want to achieve in a year big things you want to achieve and then just remind yourself that's where you're going and then, as you start to encounter obstacles, knowing that that's part of the path on the way there, and yet you are still heading there. So that's the part is like most people. You know we hit an obstacle, we think of it as like oh, I got to turn around and go back. Well, you don't. You know. You continue to know that that's where you're going and, yes, you're going to have these. You know bumps on the road or detours, but it's just like that knowledge that that's that's where I'm heading, and feeding yourself those thoughts that confirm that.
Speaker 1:Thank you, that was fantastic, so I'm going to go to the game now.
Speaker 2:But Rishiva their prizes. Where are?
Speaker 4:we going to spin the wheel. That's right.
Speaker 1:I'm happy to have a prize for this. I just thought you're such competitors in general that winning is everything I know. Jean, you're definitely into winning.
Speaker 2:That is the prize.
Speaker 1:Okay, welcome to the Spark Tank. Today, we're thrilled to have three powerhouse professionals and leaders ready to ignite our neural networks and set our synapses ablaze. In this episode, we're diving into the wild and wacky world of job hunting. From outrageous resumes to unconventional application tactics, we'll explore the most bizarre stories of how people have tried to land their dream jobs. These tales are not just entertaining. They reveal the lengths to which candidates will go to stand out in a competitive job market.
Speaker 1:Get ready for a game that'll test your lie-detecting skills and challenge your assumptions. It is time for Two Truths and a Tantalizing Lie. Here's how it works. I'll read three statements. Two of these statements are absolute truths, while one is a carefully crafted fib. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to separate fact from fiction. You ready? All right, we have three questions. This is round one. Number one In 2012, alec Brownstein bought Google AdWords for the names of creative directors he admired, so he created a Google campaign for them.
Speaker 1:When they Googled themselves, they saw his message asking for a job, which led to interviews and ultimately landing him a position at a top advertising agency. Number two, in 2013, ryan McCarthy created a Lego version of himself and sent it to potential employers, along with a QR code linking to his online portfolio. Number three in 2014, nina Muffley created a resume mimicking Airbnb's website design to apply for a job at the company. Her creative approach went viral on social media and ultimately led to an interview with the Airbnb team. What I'm going to do is I'm going to count to three and then put up one, two or three fingers, so you can't cheat, and we'll see who wins. Ready Three, two, one.
Speaker 2:Oh, all different answers oh my goodness, all different answers.
Speaker 1:So Susan's a three, shannon's one, jean is two. The lie is number two. There you go, gene in the lead, all right.
Speaker 2:While ryan mccarthy is a real software engineer, there's no verifiable information about him creating lego version of himself for job applications you know, it's just crazy enough that I thought maybe that is true, but you never know, you never know, you never know.
Speaker 1:I usually lose this game when I play against my guest. So here we go. Number one In 2010, eric Gandhi designed a resume that looked like a Google search results page, which went viral and landed him a job at a top ad agency. Number two Lucas Yala dressed as a Postmates delivery person to hand deliver boxes of donuts with his resume to tech companies in San Francisco in 2016. Number three in 2018, a software engineer created a chatbot version of himself that could answer interview questions on his behalf. Ready Three, two, one. Let's see. Gene is three, susan is three. Let's see, jean is three, susan is three and Shannon is two. The lie is number three.
Speaker 2:Yes, the question now is the person who delivered donuts. Did he get a job?
Speaker 1:So there's no verifiable information about a software engineer creating an interview enabling chatbot in 2018.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's pretty early, I could see that today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be straightforward. Eric Gandhi's Google-themed resume this is number one did go viral in 2010. It was featured on various tech and design blogs and ultimately led him to be hired by a top advertising firm Crispin Porter and Bogusky so that was a big one. They're the ones that did get milk. The resume cleverly mimicked Google search results page with Gandhi's qualifications presented as search results. That's good. And then number two Lucas donut delivery stunt. Well-documented, he hand-delivered 40 boxes of donuts to tech companies in San Francisco, each containing his resume. It led him to get over 10 interviews and significant media coverage.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:So here's number three. Susan, you have a chance to catch Gene in this one so either you're going to tie or Gene is going to win.
Speaker 1:Yes, and Shannon, you know we just get one in Number one in 2020, a job seeker created a series of TikTok videos applying for jobs at major tech companies, which led to multiple interview offers. Number two in 2013, philip Dubost created an Amazon product page style resume that went viral, receiving over 100,000 unique visitors and multiple job offers. Multiple job offers. Number three Robert Lenardi designed an interactive Super Mario style video game resume in 2013, which showcased his skills and experience as a player progressing through various levels. Three, two, one. Oh, look at this. This is interesting. So the lie is number one. Shannon, you get on the board, all right, lie number one while TikTok has been used for job searching, there's no verifiable information about a specific case in 2020. Or, philippe did do the resume called Philippe's Amazoning resume. It mimicked a product page complete with product details.
Speaker 1:Customer reviews and even a buy now button.
Speaker 3:That's fantastic, that's great, and he got job offers from Amazon and Spotify. Very clever.
Speaker 1:Robbie's interactive resume, the Mario style one, designed like a side-scrolling video game, launched in 2013, gained attention in design and tech communities. Users could navigate through different levels representing his skills, experience and awards. The innovative approach showcased his design skills and creative thinking and, of course, wide, wide claim recognition and job opportunities.
Speaker 2:That's great, that was awesome, and so the winner is je Jean, yay Jean, she's the best lie detector of our group today, when you said you were going to do this game, I was really worried. I thought you were going to do two truths and a lie about each of us Me too, I know.
Speaker 1:That would have been good. No, all right, we will have to tune our AI bot for that, but thank you, that was awesome. I'm going to ask each of you one question and just give me whatever quick pops off the top of your head and if you think it's controversial, jump in. But let's do it this way. So you ready? Yeah, I'm not doing this based on anything I know about you. So, susan, you're an investor like me. What's your anti-portfolio? One company we wish we invested in, hired us, or a company you founded? Probably LinkedIn. Linkedin for joining the company or investing in oh for founding it, founding it.
Speaker 3:Did you think of that, of started? I know I, oh that was just a good one, like really good, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Shannon, what is your personal moonshot? Define it any way you want, but it's something big you really want to see happen or accomplish want to see happen or accomplish.
Speaker 4:Oh, so right now writing my book, you know underway, but definitely kind of a hard thing to get done when you have your day to day business to run. So that's that's one I, and it really is to serve and help more people that I can't help through my own work, but it is really hard to shift gears and get that accomplished. So that's the first one that comes to mind.
Speaker 1:And what's the book about?
Speaker 4:A book is about helping intellectually curious singles find love, so how to be the CEO of their own love life. That's not the title, but I've got to wait till I write it to figure out the title but really showing them a proactive approach and what to actually do and what to think and how to market themselves, as well as figure out their target market so they can find their partner.
Speaker 1:So find your personal ICP. All right, jean, do you have a favorite life motto you return to often and share with friends in work or life?
Speaker 2:Yes, I do, and I'm trying to think I've said this before which is, and now I can't even think of it but it's sort of like enjoy what you do and do what you enjoy. So, whatever you decide to do, find the goodness and the fun in it, but also, when you're thinking of that, gravitate towards things that you know you enjoy, right. So whatever you're doing, does that make sense?
Speaker 1:I love it. Yes, that's great. That's great, and is that what you've done? Yeah, do you feel like that's where you are?
Speaker 2:Look at like what's happened in my career. I've never done something because I thought I should. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed the people. I like the marketplace or you know. There's something about it that's going to make it fun for me. But even, no matter what situation you get in, just find some beauty in it, find some fun, find it, make it a challenge. So yeah, it's worked for me.
Speaker 1:That's a great way to end and I won the. I won the game, yeah which which I don't think I would have heard the end of it if you didn't win the game. So that's the perfect way to end it, because I believe that my three guests, Susan, Shannon and Jean, all are people who do what they love and have achieved amazing things because of it and because you've utilized your relationships and being intentional to get there. So I really appreciate all of you joining me today.
Speaker 4:Thank you, Rishi, Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 3:Rajiv. Thank you All right. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Have a great weekend. That was great to have Susan Sharon community with me today. There's such a fun bunch of people. As you know, one of the things I'm trying to do is bring the world that I live in here you know a New Hampshire boy moving to Silicon Valley to all of you, and what I'm continuously blown away by, by successful people in my life that have built themselves up and definitely all three Susan, gene and Shannon all did that and have gotten themselves to where they want to be based on their life's ambition and that's something that Jean talked about is that do what you want to, you know, do something you love to do. And Susan talked about when you're meeting with people not keeping score.
Speaker 1:And I love the statement by Shannon that your network is your net worth, and these are just beautiful things that if you incorporate some of these and break out of your shell, the world is open to you, and I think it's so important to be bold like that and just seek your way forward. So thanks for listening. If you enjoyed today's podcast, please take a moment to rate it and comment. You can find us on Apple, spotify, youtube and everywhere podcasts can be found. The show is produced by Sunni Parikh and Anand Shah, production assistance by Taryn Talley, edited by Sean Maher and Aidan McGarvey. I'm your host, rajiv Parikh, from Position Squared, an AI-centric growth marketing company based in Silicon Valley. We know how to grow and scale companies really well, so come visit us at position2.com. This has been an effing funny production and we'll catch you next time, and we always remember folks. Be ever curious.