Spark of Ages

The 50% Miss: Why AI Faces a Power Crisis/Dan Kalafatas - Prices, Scope 3, Green-Hushing ~ Spark of Ages Ep 52

• Rajiv Parikh • Season 1 • Episode 52

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We confront the collision between AI’s soaring compute needs and a grid unready for 50% peak expansions, then map a practical path to build clean, firm power fast without losing sight of affordability. Dan shares candid insights on markets, permitting, contracts, and how 3Degrees tackles Scope 3 at scale.

• AI demand growth outpacing efficiency gains
• Wartime mobilization mindset for energy buildout
• All-the-above strategy across renewables, storage, and firm power
• Price pressures from supply constraints and who pays
• Additionality and siting clean power abroad
• Permitting and transmission reform progress and limits
• Financial governance: minimum revenue commitments and PPA design
• Demand response and 24/7 carbon matching incentives
• Scope 3 decarbonisation and supplier aggregations
• Virtual power plants and flexible load orchestration
• Leadership, governance, and resilience in volatile markets

Power isn’t a footnote to the AI boom—it’s the bottleneck. We sit down with 3Degrees co-founder and chairman Dan Kalafatas to untangle the thorniest question in tech and climate: how do we deliver massive new capacity, keep prices in check, and still cut emissions on an hourly, 24/7 basis? Dan makes the case for a wartime mobilization mindset and an all-of-the-above strategy, pairing solar and wind with storage and firm clean power like recommissioned nuclear and geothermal, while acknowledging the near-term role of natural gas. He explains why utilities are demanding minimum revenue commitments from hyperscalers, how demand response can unlock tens of gigawatts in the hours that matter most, and why temporal matching in carbon accounting will push buyers toward real around-the-clock decarbonization.

We dig into additionality as Big Tech sites data centers in places with hydro and other low-carbon resources. What actually drives new clean energy build instead of reshuffling existing electrons? Dan shares pragmatic contract levers—from accelerated repayment clauses to renewable-only PPAs—that reduce stranded-asset risk and steer capital toward projects that cut emissions when the grid is dirtiest. He also unpacks the friction slowing progress: interconnection queues, permitting delays, water constraints, and a public already feeling price pressure before the big build even begins.

On the enterprise side, we explore how 3Degrees approaches Scope 3 decarbonization and the rise of virtual power plants, where orchestration beats brute force. Thousands of suppliers, different load shapes, and new 24/7 reporting expectations create a data problem tailor-made for AI—if governance and audit trails come first. Expect candid takes on “green hushing,” the role of states when federal leadership zigzags, and why empathetic leadership belongs at the center of market design and execution.

Dan Kalafatas: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dankalafatas/

Dan Kalafatas is the Chairman and Co-Founder of 3Degrees, a leading global decarbonization solutions provider that has spent nearly two decades building the scalable systems necessary for businesses to tackle the existential threat of climate change.  Dan is also a proud alumnus of Dartmouth College and the Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Website: https://www.position2.com/podcast/

Rajiv Parikh: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajivparikh/

Sandeep Parikh: https://www.instagram.com/sandeepparikh/

Email us with any feedback for the show: sparkofages.podcast@position2.com

Dan Kalafatas:

We've got a terrible conundrum here when it comes to AI, climate change, affordability, and power sufficiency all bundled together in one moment in our society. What we're talking about is a wartime mobilization that's necessary. Go back to everything you've all read about World War II and what was required to pull that off. This is a trillion-dollar design problem that is addressable in a generation.

Rajiv Parikh:

Welcome to the Spark of Ages podcast. Today we're joined by Dan Kalafatas, the chairman and co-founder of Three Degrees, a leading global decarbonization solutions provider that has spent nearly two decades building the scalable systems necessary for businesses to tackle the existential threat of climate change. Dan is a true pioneer in the climate solutions space. Under his leadership and the work of many others, 3Degrees has grown from a small North American-focused renewable energy commodity business to a company with 300 employees, approximately a billion dollars in revenue, and is regarded for its pathbreaking work in climate markets. 3Deges is also a proudly certified B Corp, a commitment Dan notes they embraced early on, saying that they were a B Corp before there was a B Corp. Dan's core philosophy is driven by a passion for environmental stewardship combined with exceptional analytical ability. Dan is also a proud alum of Dartmouth College and the Stanford Graduate School of Business. Some of the key takeaways you can expect from this episode: how we power demand growth from the AI data center boom, dealing with the uncertainties in the renewable energy business, building an amazing business from the ground up, and finally, how Dan and three degrees are approaching their use of AI. So, Dan, welcome to the Spark of Ages.

Dan Kalafatas:

Great to be here, Rajiv. Really great to be here.

Rajiv Parikh:

I have known Dan for quite some time. I've gotten to see your business evolve, but your purpose has never changed. Your purpose has always been to make a huge difference in the world, but it's come an incredible long way. And in this session, we're going to spend a little more time on the whole notion of AI and power. And it's a kitchen table issue in the recent election. It's why the New Jersey governor won because of affordability rates rising, much of which folks attribute to the rising use of AI and its impact on utility rates. But at the same time, even with all the amazing cost reductions in renewable energy and all the growth in installations, we've emitted 38.1 billion tons of carbon dioxide, which is about a percent greater than last year. So folks are still burning oil, gas, and coal. And so all these are things that would be great things to talk about.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah, look forward to it.

Rajiv Parikh:

Let's dig in. All right. So we'll go to AI right away. Applying Jevon's paradox to energy means that improvements in energy efficiency often lead to increased overall energy consumption, right? So since AI demand for computing power is increasing approximately fourfold annually, it's far outpacing efficiency improvements. Are corporate commitments to efficiency and carbon-free emissions simply masking a continuous exponential increase in demand that ultimately drives up global greenhouse gas emissions?

Dan Kalafatas:

We've got a terrible conundrum here when it comes to AI, climate change, affordability, and power sufficiency all bundled together in one moment in our society. Even if you take AI out of it, an energy transition, even at current levels of demand, is like changing multiple engines on a jet plane while it's flying. You bring on top of that truly unprecedented demand, but I'll get into your demand question here in a second. To evidence the point, I was just talking. We're here in Northern California. I was just talking with someone from PGE. Their peak capacity in this region is 20 gigawatts. Gigawatts a whole bunch of power. Don't really worry about what that is, but just focus on the word 20. Over the next five years, they expect new data centers and new demand at 10 to that. That's a 50% expansion in peak capacity need in an environment where in the United States, more or less, we've had flat demand for 40 years.

Rajiv Parikh:

They're not thinking about that kind of infrastructure build, right? I mean, in terms of plants, in terms of transmission capacity, that's just not been part of their playbook.

Dan Kalafatas:

Exactly. What we're talking about is a wartime mobilization that's necessary. Go back to everything you've all read about World War II and what was required to pull that off. And to your point, on the demand front, you know, my view, and I'm not an expert on AI applications, but my view is the world's focused so much on the bleeding edge large language models. And there's this thing called small language models that aren't being deployed, as I understand, a great, great need. And even if the power is there to supply the large models, and as the cost of compute of those comes down, I agree. This is basic economics. The class I took is the first year at Dartmouth, quantity is going to go way up. We're going to have uh small language models and coffee makers. And I think aggregate demand is just going to scale and scale and scale.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's amazing. Yeah. So it's going to scale, it's going to grow. And as it gets cheaper to get compute, they use a lot more energy than we can ever imagine. And so this is just putting a lot of stress on the system. So OpenAI CEO Sam Altman stated that AI will need, as we were talking about, 200 gigawatts of compute capacity by 2033, which is roughly one-third of the peak power consumption in the entire United States. So, given projections that the US needs to build between 70 and 130 gigawatts of power capacity in the next five years, stay competitive in AI, how can the energy sector possibly meet this unprecedented demand without compromising existing environmental goals?

Dan Kalafatas:

Okay, so Rajiv, you know that I'm an optimist. Constitutionally, I'm an optimist and have been my whole life. And I am very concerned that we're not going to be able to deliver the power that's necessary. And there's this really funny conundrum that's happening right now, where the AI community is saying, are they going to be able to deliver the power? And the power community is asking the same question, is this real? Because we're talking about a massive infrastructure, massive capital deployment in place. And there's a lot of questions about that. I think it is very likely that there's a 50% miss on the power available for AI. And I think the public equity markets and all these firms are assuming perfection. And I'll be honest, the tone I get from institutional investors that I talk to, the venture community friends of both of ours here in the area, is oh, the power issue is a problem. We'll put some people on it, we'll hack our way through, fusion's coming, we're all good. That's kind of the nature of the conversation.

Rajiv Parikh:

There's like at least in the Bay Area, right? There was a recent Bloomberg report, right? That there's two data centers that have been built that are have been literally been sitting there for a couple of years. Because at least in the like you were talking about, you're talking to PG and E, they're not able to connect power to them.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah.

Rajiv Parikh:

You have that, and then you have the desire for companies, that's why they call three degrees, to do this in a carbon-free manner. So, how do these things work together?

Dan Kalafatas:

So it is possible. What we need is an all the above strategy of wartime mobilization, as I mentioned before. And you can pair solar and wind and rapidly emerging battery technology with some natural gas to provide firm solutions at these kinds of scales. But you need all of those. And the current political environment, it's pretty well documented, is delivering a whole of you know federal government attacked on solar and wind, which is the cheapest, even without subsidies and the fastest to deploy technology. So one of the things we need in the United States is that all the above approach that embraces nuclear fission, recommissioning of nuclear power plants, geothermal. And I should be clear politically, I think the work that's happening on supporting firm, consistent power sources and particularly carbon-free sources is excellent, as well as reform of the transmission system, the fermenting system, the interconnection cubes. All these things provide massive friction that I think many in the AI sector don't fully appreciate when it takes to bring these on board. It's possible, but what's happening right now is a ton of natural gas demand that's coming online. It's pretty broadly documented, a five to seven year wait list for natural gas turbines in the United States. So there's some real risk that we're gonna be losing our ability to execute on decarbonization of this country as a result of an attempt to be dominant on AI. And I don't think the power is going to be there for us to be dominant. So I think we need some changes.

Rajiv Parikh:

Okay, so there's potential, you know, one of our guests previously, Brett Kugelmas, talked about the notion of small module nuclear, but that he was mostly looking at doing that overseas because the regulatory environment wasn't there for him. Now, of course, that was during previous administration. Maybe things have changed, but it doesn't move that fast, right? It's so natural gas is probably the way things will move, unless yeah.

Dan Kalafatas:

So I'm optimistic about recommissioned nuclear fission plants. That's the kind of energy that when we think of nuclear energy that we deploy. I think there will be some new construction of large scale and the small modular fission plants. I think fusion will be here. The very first pilots, though, are gonna happen at best late this decade. And for kind of anything close to scale deployment, that's next year. And so we've got this hole right now. This there's a whole bunch of solar wind and battery projects that are coming on right now over the next year. But between then and say 2032, a critical period for AI development. Critical. And I want our country to be dominant on this front. We're running into real power sufficiency issue. So I encourage people to lean in and vote their reality there. And beyond sufficiency, you know, you raise one of the conundrums of the moment is inflationary pressure on you know a huge fraction of this country and power is delivering.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah, maybe you could explain some of that. Like just help us understand why is putting an AI data center going to affect my utility rates? You guys have the sophistication of understanding these notion of power purchase contracts. And when you put up something, you own it at a certain rate, and then you have another rate set aside, maybe for consumers, but it seems like one is hurting the other. Is that correlation real or is it?

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah, yeah. So you've got counterveiling factors. On the one hand, there are a lot of fixed costs in a utility system. And if you can sell more volume, a new big data center comes online, then you can amortize that fixed costs over a broad base and reduce the requirement for any given sale. So put some downward pressure on things. On the other hand, there's such a rush to power that power prices are being competed upwards. And so let's say the data center companies grab the lower cost most quickly to deploy resources, the rest of the power system still needs to buy power. And there's a kind of a stalkout environment, literally down to electricians and hardware goes into all of this. This is why I go back to wartime mobilization. And so, what happens when you've got supply chain constraints? Price goes up, and so the rest of the system will have to buy higher power prices.

Rajiv Parikh:

So there's not a situation where, oh, I'm putting my data center in, and then as part of the deal, the utility can say, Well, I've already locked this much power for my consumers. You have to get incremental. They can actually go in and get the low cost power.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah. So on the one hand, there's a lot of efforts by utilities, utility commissioners, energy commissions around the country to focus the incremental costs on the data center companies. To the extent the direct costs of bringing the data center online aren't fully allocated, then that cost gets borne. But even in the scenario where it is fully done, we also have power demand increases around the country in general. We're electrifying all kinds of things. You drive an electric vehicle.

Rajiv Parikh:

I do.

Dan Kalafatas:

And more and more people are doing that. We're electrifying homes. We're growing the GDP. You know, God bless America. All of these things require more power. So more power needs to get purchased. And what I was driving at a second ago was like acquiring that at a reasonable price is increasingly difficult. The thing I'll also notice related to these dynamics is that you have popular unrest around power prices here at the very beginning of this build-out. Imagine what it's going to be like two and three years from now. This is a really serious problem. This is a real issue that legislatures, utility commissions, and governors are wrestling with right now.

Rajiv Parikh:

It's like a who pays situation. Exactly.

Dan Kalafatas:

And the fact that I'm saying things like legislatures and governors and so forth, it speaks to the friction that's involved with the changes that have to be made to approve new power supply that's going to slow the development of AI in this country.

Rajiv Parikh:

So if energy capacity and grid interconnects now define the timeline for AI deployment, leading some companies to seek locations with abundant low emission power, like hydropower in Norway or Australia, right? They're prioritizing renewable energy-backed operations. So when a major tech company or major tech firms commit to international clean energy locations, how can they ensure this results in the notion of additionality, which is driving the construction of new green energy infrastructure? And maybe you could explain first what additionality is first and then go into that.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah, it's leading to new generation, not contracting for existing generation. And you added the green power element. So new from clean sources. Perhaps we're talking carbon-free sources here to invoke nuclear and hydro and so forth. So at some level, because we're talking about a power system that's growing so much, everything's additional. In reality, what's happening is a lot of the data center companies are going out, say on the nuclear fission front and grabbing nuclear supplies that were socialized in the past. In addition, you do have, especially outside the US, rapid deployment of solar and wind to meet the moment. And outside the US, much more moderate demand increases. Like take Europe, you know, we're talking about 5% demand growth over a set of years. And that's reasonable, that's manageable, that can be handled with solar and wind and storage and other emerging technology. So it's much easier to attend. The big issue in the United States is the pace of change and not having an all of the above approach to the solution.

Rajiv Parikh:

I remember during the time of the big infrastructure bill or the inflation reduction act, right? Where they were encouraging significant renewable energy build-out, right? And then some of that was, of course, taken back in this latest bill. But Joe Manchin at the time was talking about speeding up reform of permitting. Is that happening? I know the build-in pass or his build-in pass.

Dan Kalafatas:

So it is, and I think the White House deserves a lot of credit for leaning into this. They're advanced, it's a bit controversial, but reform around at the FERC level around data center approvals related to transmission lines. You see it at the state level here in California. There's been great reforms to rapidly deploy renewables. They're AI businesses. Jarmett's just launched something that allows permitting for offshore wind at a much more rapid pace. And there's a whole bunch of startups, as you can imagine, startups on AI around every application higher. And so there's some here. So those are definitely important reforms. They'd be important whether or not the AI demand inflection was happening right now. And they're ultimately a good thing for the conundrum that we have here, though they bring up other issues as well. There's a lot of people concerned about localized impacts on water.

Rajiv Parikh:

You need water for cooling, right? These centers, and you need water in general, right? In California, water is a big problem. Or if climate change, water has become a huge issue just around the country, right? And especially in the West. So is that something you guys deal with?

Dan Kalafatas:

We companies in the grand scheme, even though we're a billion revenue with the grand scheme of things, we're still a small company. So we focused on energy. But a ton of people, human ingenuity, hard at work on water and pooling systems and so forth. And I'm really encouraged by the innovations that are happening there and getting scaled. I think that's one of the real upsides to the AI bonus, it's bringing um high relief to those kinds of things. But there's serious issues. And so this is another area where it needs to be political engagement to assure that the solutions are fair and equitable and empowering our economy off of the future.

Rajiv Parikh:

It's amazing. So we'll go back to some of these AI factories. So with the capital raising for AI factories reaching unprecedented scale, right? There's a $500 billion Stargate project. Debt financing risks locking us into long-term fossil fuel reliance, particularly given that natural gas is expected to power some major planned sites. So, Dan, as a leader in climate advisory, what contractual or government's measures, such as higher interest rates, accelerated repayment clauses, guaranteed renewable-only power purchase agreements, do you think should be tied to private credit and debt instruments for AI infrastructure to prevent stranded fossil fuel assets 10 to 15 years down the line? How can financial governance proactively address this?

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah, that I you're really putting your finger on a super important issue. And it's not just a fossil fuel issue. We're talking about infrastructure on the renewable energy side for solar and wind, you need to ensure that the demand's going to be there regardless. And a lot of this is being built on the assumption that demand opts in the future. And so that goes back to what I said early in this conversation, which is the power sector is a little wary of whether the demand will be there. And I was just talking to a utility executive, and it's super common now to require a minimum revenue commitment from data centers to the utilities who are doing a lot of build out on their behalf to make sure that they'll be able to recoup the costs of doing that. And that's important. You know, I've heard numbers like 80% of expected demand. So the data center companies are guaranteeing that. Or not to go too deep in the sector, something called demand charges, which is the a charge associated with the peak demand that you need, requiring minimum amounts of that as well. So I think those kinds of assurances serve to protect utilities, to protect the general public around potential failures. And look, in infrastructure, we can go through a whole bunch of categories over history. There are periods where there's overbuild, and that leads to price crashes as well. And despite the incredible opportunity that AI offers, there's risk around that as well.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's right. I mean, there are price crashes. We've seen that before. We saw this before in California, right? Where there's massive price crashes and then folks played the market and then there became massive price increases. So all kinds of things can happen in a market like this. And as new situations come in, things evolve, right?

Dan Kalafatas:

So I have reasons to be happy. Yeah. I don't want to be too negative here.

Rajiv Parikh:

You are an optimist, and I think part of it is having an efficient market, right?

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah. And to that point, there's incredible opportunity to use analytics and design a responsive power market of our dreams here. So much of the cost in power systems is a function of 20 or 200 hours a year, and that's it. And so there are these systems called demand response, where the system as a whole will pay people to shed power, whether aluminum plant or a data center, so forth. And as a country, we barely scratch the surface of this, even though there's systems deployed in, I think, seven states right now. Fully deploying those back to the hundred, 135 gigawatts that you cited earlier. That can deliver tens of gigawatts of affected supply. It's essentially demand reduction at the just right time. These kinds of solutions are still within our grasp here as a country and with the ingenuity that we have.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah, I mean, so price does help, right? Having a market and pricing power according to when you need it is important, right? Like you were saying, during the day, because of California's massive amount of solar built, actually prices go negative during the day. So that's why we have battery storage. Maybe we can utilize more things during the day and then you know somehow move it to the nights or to other times.

Dan Kalafatas:

So there's another thing happening that also has me encouraged, directly related to the dynamics you're talking about, which is there's this obscure accounting system called the greenhouse gas protocol that defines how companies or particularly large enterprises around the world report on their carbon profile. And there's a change happening to an element of it, particularly for large enterprises that will be implemented in the years ahead, TBD, that requires what's called temporal matching, which is for any claims that you're renewable powered, it needs to be done on an hourly 24-7 basis as opposed to an annually matched basis. And I think this is a good change for the world, because if you think through that, it then creates a big incentive for hyperscalers, other corporations, et cetera, to buy solutions that deliver power that better matches their load. So more batteries and to participate in demand response programs that shape when they need the power as well. And what will happen is we will truly have more carbon-free energy around the clock.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah, but if we take it to the AI world, right, you can then more effectively schedule your training. So inferencing, you may not be able to change because inferencing is when I'm actually operating, right? So people need compute when they need it to operate the models they've built or the programs, the small language models that they've turned into enterprise applications. But for the training, you could do those workloads during those times where power is much less expensive and you could schedule it that way.

Dan Kalafatas:

So imagine training for a global firm that literally follows the sun around the world.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah. Yeah. No, that this is really cool. As it goes, you're setting your training set and it's moving where power is least expensive or most available as you go. So uh we had an episode on sovereign data providers. So maybe all these sovereign data AI data providers could lash together and work themselves through this. Pretty cool. Okay, the AI industry relies on internal metrics like tokens per kilowatt to measure hardware efficiency and reduce energy costs. So, how challenging would it be to translate complex technical data like tokens per kilowatt into something standardized, auditable, an environmental rating system that is transparent to enterprise buyers? So, would it be something outcome-based, something like energy legal document?

Dan Kalafatas:

We got this. I mean, we, the data center company, we tackled far more difficult things than that. There's a way to simplify, you know, visualizations, reporting, and so forth. I think it's an excellent idea. I, you know, we, you and I have a friend that's bringing in much more fixalization on purchase criteria for AI deployment. And I think it'll deliver exactly those kinds of outcomes. So we got this. Come on, we've tackled more hard, more difficult problems than figuring out how to report.

Rajiv Parikh:

Awesome. All right. So let me just ask you a little bit about the current political environment. So you have a situation where there was high encouragement, hard push to go renewable, and now you have a situation where they're backing off, right? US is getting out of the Paris climate agreement. What are you seeing? Because your company is dealing with corporations that are in the US as well as globally. What's your sense of how things are going?

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah, so it's not as black and white as a lot of people characterize it. You know, I hear these fatalistic statements like renewables are dead in the United States. And that's just really not true. So, first, to focus on the US, what the US does, particularly with power and renewable power, is when the federal government doesn't lead, and it's leading on a whole bunch of issues. Like I said, firm clean power, nuclear development, permitting and reform, the states respond right here in California, just over the last couple months, we re-entitled Cap and Invest, Cap and Trade in the United States through 2045. Talk about creating an environment for deployment and security and stability over time. And there's linkages with Quebec, Washington's going to link with that. I've seen over my career, going back to George W. Bush, Trump won, you know, the GFC, the COVID B, when there's not tribal leadership, states respond. And there's a whole bunch of states that are responding as well to tighten the rules that they impose on utilities and around carbon regulation and all its various forms. Now, having said that, the political reality of the conundrum and the inflationary pressures and the popular upheaval, it will lead, and it is today, to some dilution of these regulations that require utilities to buy more and more of their power over time. And I do think we're going to see more of that right along with it. Beyond that, to your question on the corporate side, there's something called green hushing that's happening right now.

Rajiv Parikh:

Green hushing.

Dan Kalafatas:

Green hushing. Oh. And there was actually a Harvard Business Review. I know you're a Harbor guy. That was just a piece that was just published on this, which in a nutshell is it comports with what we know anecdotally, which is companies are working their tails off against their 2030 carbon reduction goals. Like their tails off. And they're just talking less about it. They're, you know, toning down their websites. It's a bit like DEI and how it's being treated in a lot of organizations.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's definitely the sh word. Yeah.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's the question, right? The companies are doing this because there's demand from their customers to work in a low emissions carbon neutral way. I mean, in many ways, the demand of your consumer is there. And now you're saying there's also an economic benefit to getting that.

Dan Kalafatas:

Exactly. It's the two together. And look, any institution needs to maintain its license to operate with its stakeholders. And it doesn't matter if you're, you know, Harvard or, you know, it's Addison or company or three degrees. So the stakeholder view, not just customers. There's, you know, some investors that care a lot about these issues. And but customers are a big part of that, whether it's you know, business customers or individuals.

Rajiv Parikh:

All right. We're going to shift a little bit to how three degrees and its own technology and the technology development. I know it's something that you've pushed hard for in reducing tech debt in your company, right? So maybe explain a little bit more about how three degrees works. But three degrees is highly specialized in complex, high-valued environmental optimization, such as scope three decarbonization and the development of virtual power plants. Words I didn't even know till I read them today. Okay. How close is your organization to deploying and scaling AI agents to manage these processes? For example, are you dynamically optimizing virtual power plant performance or running supply chain efficiency programs? What are specific governance and audit trail requirements that must be met before an organization like yours would trust an autonomous agent to handle critical environmental asset management at scale? I hit you with a whole bunch of things. So start with this is for our time for sure. Yeah, explain a little bit, but start with three degrees.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah, I mean, any organization worth its salt needs to be leaning in to AI. It's it's a competitive imperative. And we are too, and have been going through our own journey like a lot of institutions have as well. We're doing a fair bit of experimentation right now. We do have some agents deployed and we're at work on an explete, a fleet after that, fleet after that. Having said that, we need to make sure there's quality in place. And there's no question that there could be massive productivity enhancements. We one area we're really excited about is obscure category of scope three emissions. So, in a nutshell, we're going to oversimplify this is supply chain emissions for any company. And usually the embodied carbon in the supply chain for any organization is a huge fraction of its total impact on the world, think 50%, maybe 80%. And within that, you often, especially for big enterprises, have thousands or tens of thousands of different suppliers, only some fraction of which you have real control over, even if you're a major player like Google or Microsoft or someone like that. And often, especially when you go back one step further, you have no idea who these parties are. So there's a real need for data consolidation, normalization, and deploying solutions at various stages that requires you've just got a massive data need. Now bring in 24-7 markets as well, where ultimately three steps up the value chain, you need to understand the load profile on a 24-7 basis, 365 days of the year up front and after the fact, you have a big data problem that's beyond the human brain to fully integrate. Never mind doing that on a global basis. And so technology writ large and AR in particular, we think can be really useful in taming that chaos. And ultimately, we need complex but simple solutions that allowed for elegant execution.

Rajiv Parikh:

It's amazing. So scope three decarbonization is what I admit. There's what I own, it's what I do, which is scope two, and scope three is what my suppliers and buyers may do downstream, essentially. So you're dealing with that. Are you dealing with that as part of the contracts that you help companies establish?

Dan Kalafatas:

We are. So we've been doing work there for 10 years. It's sector as a whole is very focused on that. If you're a large enterprise and you've made a decarbonization renewables commitment, and most have at this point, your own purchasing for your own power, you're well down the path on that. And, you know, maybe not in every jurisdiction around the world. But when it comes to supply chain, there's a lot of companies that have a long, long most companies have a long, long way to go. And so there's tremendous opportunity for decarbonization globally as a result of this. We put together purchase aggregations on behalf of clients where we'll invite their tier one suppliers to participate and leverage a screaming good power purchase agreement price that was negotiated by our client on their behalf. And sometimes our clients participate, sometimes they offer it up for others. So those kinds of efficiencies, that's not a mind-blowing solution. That's just getting organized and executing against the goal. And there's a lot of opportunity with that.

Rajiv Parikh:

It's really amazing, Dan. Thank you. And then virtual power plant. What's a virtual power plant?

Dan Kalafatas:

Yes. So we talked about that. That's this beautifully elegant power system of our dreams that can dynamically meet supply and demand of the moment. That's the broad concept. The narrow most used application is when you get a whole fleet of what are called DERs, distributed energy resources that can be highly responsive to the moment. So this could be, I'm going to guess you've got battery storage in your house or down the road. Hopefully, someday you'll buy a vehicle that allows for two way power charging. And distribution.

Rajiv Parikh:

I was hoping my Tesla charger would let me just go back and forth with my car, but we're not there right now.

Dan Kalafatas:

But what's happening actually is school buses are some of the best deployments of what's called vehicle to grid right now. So think about it. Charge during the sunshine, drop the kids off after school who still have a bunch of power in the batteries, and deploy right into the darkness of California. And they're big batteries. These have a lot of potential. It's just one other example. Another could be having nest thermostats on a national basis working in concert to just turn up the heat a couple degrees. You wouldn't even really notice.

Rajiv Parikh:

So small changes can make a massive difference at those points where you're spiking with the absolutely.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah. Toggling AC on and off every 15 minutes.

Rajiv Parikh:

You don't feel the difference.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah, exactly. So this is the kind of intelligence that we need to really harness at writ large. And that's what VPPAs are a version of that.

Rajiv Parikh:

And it's it's amazing that you're involved with it, Dan. So I appreciate that.

Dan Kalafatas:

That's really we admittedly we don't do a lot on that front, but I'm a huge fan, huge advocate. And there's other companies that are specialists in those categories that I am sending my best to.

Rajiv Parikh:

All right. It could be one of your investment or acquisition targets. All right, Dan, now we're going to go to one of the most fun parts about this show is the game. And we've decided to go at something that my producers found about you. So this is called Extreme Journeys, the Climate Pioneer's Crucible. So, Dan, welcome to the Spark Tank. Today we're thrilled to have Dan Celephetis, the chairman and co-founder of Three Degrees, joining us. Dan is a true pioneer in the climate and clean energy space, a world where the challenges are arguably the most extreme we face globally. But his expertise in navigating extremes isn't just professional. Dan's personal adventures, like whitewater rafting in 37 degree glacial water near the Arctic Circle and sleeping in a capsule strapped to an 11,000 foot cliff face, prove that he has an unrivaled instinct for risk assessment and high-stakes planning. So, Dan, we're putting your battle-tested instincts to the crucible with Extreme Journeys Trivia Challenge. We are going to test your knowledge of some of the planet's greatest feats of vertical ascent, cold weather survival, and physical endurance achieved by others. So, Dan, are you ready to prove that your focus on extreme success is as sharp in the mountains as it is in the boardroom?

Dan Kalafatas:

Oh, bring it on, bring it on. I'll also add some of this might be hereditary. My grandfather dated Alcapone's sister. So talk about a little bit of risk. We're really glad, by the way, that that didn't work out.

Rajiv Parikh:

Risk and planning. Okay, here's question number one. In 2013, a team of divers descended into freezing waters at 20,000 feet above sea level, higher than most people have ever stood on solid ground to set the world record for the highest altitude scuba dive ever recorded. What makes it unique? It wasn't just about diving, it was about acclimatizing to extreme altitude where oxygen is scarce, then submerging into near-freezing water in a remote crater lake. The divers faced challenges from both mountaineering and deep sea diving simultaneously. At which mountains crater lake was this extraordinary record set? You have three choices, Dan. A Mount Kilimanjaro, which is Tanzania's dormant volcano with a summit crater. B Ojos del Salado, a remote volcanic peak at the Chile and Argentina border, or C, Mount Everest, the world's highest peak with high altitude lakes.

Dan Kalafatas:

So it's not Kilimanjaro, because I think that's 18,000 feet. I'm gonna go B because it's unexpected.

Rajiv Parikh:

Dan, you nailed it. Yes, there you go. At the beginning, we talked about your analytical genius. So the record was set at crater lake at Ojos del Salado, the world's highest active volcano at 22,615 feet. While Kilabanjaro does have a crater, it's not the site of this record. Everest, despite being the highest mountain, doesn't have the accessible crater lake that made this dive possible. So Ojos del Salado's unique combination of extreme altitude and a diveable crater lake created the perfect and most challenging conditions for this remarkable achievement. The divers had to spend days acclimatizing to the thin air before attempting to dive in water just above freezing.

Dan Kalafatas:

That's incredible. I've been to 40 meters in trophical water, a totally different line of the ball. And I've been to 15,000 feet, but not 20. I am incredibly impressed.

Rajiv Parikh:

Okay. Well, here's number two. You got one right. Here's number two. Marathon des Sables or MDS requires runners to complete 156 miles in the scorching Sahara Desert over six days. The race provides water and shelter, but its rules impose a unique and unforgiving burden that is considered the hallmark of its difficulty. What critical provision must runners manage and carry themselves that fundamentally transforms the marathon de Sables from a running challenge into a week-long survival and strategic rationing test?

Dan Kalafatas:

Water. A. Sorry.

Rajiv Parikh:

Do you want to try to answer without it?

Dan Kalafatas:

I think it's water. I mean, it's so incredibly heavy.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's good to set it as a marker. Okay. A specialized tents and sleeping bags to withstand the extreme temperature drop when the sun sets over the desert. B every single calorie food needed for six days of racing, adding substantial weight to their packs from the start. And C a mandatory radio tracking device, satellite phone, and emergency flare kit for self-rescue in the remote landscape. So those are the three choices.

Dan Kalafatas:

I mean, they definitely carry C, so that's that's not it. I will go B because the cleric, I can't even imagine how many calories you take for that.

Rajiv Parikh:

And you got to carry it yourself. So the answer is drum roll B. Carrying every single calorie needed for six days of racing. What truly distinguishes Marathon de Sables is its mandatory self-sufficiency rule. While the race provides water checkpoints, God, imagine carrying that much water, runners must carry everything else. Sleeping bag, compass, headlamp, and critically 14,000 calories worth of dehydrated food. Backpacks can weigh 15 to 25 pounds on day one. Other races cover similar distances in desert heat over multiple days, but MDS transforms the event from a pure running race into a week-long survival exercise. You must strategically ration calories, manage the physical strain of running with a heavy pack, and ensure you don't run out of fuel before the finish. It's the ultimate test of both endurance and logistical planning.

Dan Kalafatas:

And you're carrying water between the checkpoints. And presumably those are, you know, a minimum of five miles, if not 10 or something like that. So there's real weight there.

Rajiv Parikh:

So there's a definite huge add-on to that.

Dan Kalafatas:

Humans are incredible.

Rajiv Parikh:

It's amazing.

Dan Kalafatas:

Dan, you're two for two. All right. So can you get three? I'm feeling nervous.

Rajiv Parikh:

All right. We're gonna ramp it up with a subject that you and I have actually been to a session on. So after the endurance was crushed by Antarctic ice in 1915, Sir Erneston and his 27 men were stranded on a desolate Elephant Island, a barren, wind-battered rock with no hope of rescue. No one knew where they were, no ships passed by. If they stayed, they would die. What makes it legendary? Shackleton made an almost suicidal decision, taking five men in a 22-foot open lifeboat and sail 800 miles across the southern ocean, considered the most violent seas on Earth, to reach help. They navigated using only a sextant and dead reckoning, battling 60-foot waves, hurricane force winds, and temperature well below freezing. One navigation error would mean sailing past their target island and dying in the open ocean. After 16 days of sailing through hell, which remote island did Shackleton's tiny lifeboat miraculously reach in April 1916? So here are three choices, unless you want to guess it without the choice. Okay, A is Falkland Islands, a British territory 575 miles northeast with an established port and regular ship traffic. B Shisten de Kunja, the world's most remote inhabited island, 2,400 miles to the north in the Atlantic, and C South Georgia Island, a wheeling station 800 miles away across the most treacherous waters on the planet.

Dan Kalafatas:

C why would you say C? Because it rings a bell and it wasn't B. I'm certain of that. Falklands possible. And you know, I remember it being an epic journey. And I think what was difficult is 500, 800 miles. They're both epic.

Rajiv Parikh:

800 miles in the ocean? I know lifeboat. That's true. Cro South Georgia Island. Shackleton chose South Georgia Island because it was the nearest inhabited outpost with whaling stations, despite requiring the perilous 800-mile journey across the Scotia Sea, the meeting point of the Antarctic and Atlantic Oceans where waves can reach 60 feet. The Falklands, while closer and safer, were out of reach given their position and prevailing winds. Tristan de Cuna was way too far away, 2400 miles. After reaching South Georgia's south coast, Shackleton then had to cross the island's unmapped, glaciated interior on foot to reach the whaling station on the north side, a feat never before accomplished. Remarkably, all 28 men from the endurance expedition eventually survived, making it one of history's greatest leadership and survival stories.

Dan Kalafatas:

See, as a society, we can handle reporting the GHG intensity of computer. We can handle that thanks.

Rajiv Parikh:

I mean, if he could do it, how hard could that be? I still remember from that case that he just had this really short classified ad that just said, you know, need so many men. This is dangerous. You could die, you know.

Dan Kalafatas:

But if you want an epic journey, give me a call.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah. Yeah. There was very little salesmanship and it was just all about the risks, but it was helping him find the right types of people who want to take on that kind of risk. Just incredible. You're right. If you could do this, building some transmission line, some power plants, how hard can this be?

Dan Kalafatas:

That's right.

Rajiv Parikh:

All right. Now we're going to transition to questions about starting three degrees and your entrepreneurial journey. Did you know you always wanted to work in climate change? I know, like in 2002 at Stanford, and you talked about you heard a climate change speech from TJ Glaudier of the Clinton administration that was so resonant, inspired you to dedicate your business career to the US renewable energy sector. So can you elaborate the core message of that speech and what sparked you?

Dan Kalafatas:

Well, let me back up for a minute. I had no interest in working on climate change. I didn't know what climate change was. First of all, and I thought energy was incredibly boring. You just plug a thing in the wall and you know, lights go on and the fuel truck shows up in my Massachusetts, you know, small mill town. So right after college, I went to work for a really family-oriented consulting firm. And I loved that environment, but I wasn't really, after some time, feeling the work, like as in this is my purpose on this earth. And so I found myself up late at night reading Ben and Jerry's book, Double Scoop. Nice. This is what in like 1998. And it was the first articulation I'd ever heard of the double bottom line. And you probably remember well, not only did Ben and Jerry's have amazing ice cream, but they really saw themselves as a social enterprise. And I devoured this book. You know those books you read where you're underlining a marginalia, highlights, and dog ears, and rereading it. That was me. And I read something similar about Tom Subman. And I love this idea of using market forces to solve social problems done in a private enterprise that honors its stakeholders in a more explicit way than many organizations do. Not all our organizations are very stakeholder-driven. So I wrote these idealistic essays that and went to Stanford Business School about that.

Rajiv Parikh:

So your essays to business school were about it.

Dan Kalafatas:

Exactly.

Rajiv Parikh:

If you take me in, I'll do this. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Dan Kalafatas:

So then I lurched around as a confused soul in business school for a long time, looking at all kinds of different things. And nothing really floated my boat until someone grabbed me by the earlobe and hauled me into that talk. And my life took a right hand turn. The, you know, renewable energy only barely existed at that point in time. The economics major in me, the business school student, I loved the market-based element of that and this idea that there were gains from trade. There was this innovation around a crediting mechanism that happened. And you know, I learned about climate change and something that has stuck with me for a long time. I grew up in a house of immigration, immigrant traditions. I'm third gen.

Rajiv Parikh:

So they maintained it, right? They maintained the Greek origins, the Greek culture, right?

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had some great Greek Easters growing up. And that the idea of social justice was a powerful one in my house and in the tradition, grandparents and so on and so forth. I also have such a clear memory of convocation at Dharmatz as an undergrad, which is when, you know, as you of sure know, when colleges declare you officially a freshman, our president James Friedman spoke. And in a nutshell, he said, How like, how lucky are you to be in this room? And you have a duty to do something for society. And I really believe that notion that we stand on the shoulders of those who come before us, we live such great lives in general in the United States because of the work of so many others. You know, economically, think about our conserved lands and we could go on and on and on and on. And so, from a values perspective, the idea of helping to address climate change, of helping to grow this sector of using the skills and experiences that I am grateful I developed at that point in time to take on a problem that's really in the grand scheme of humanity, it's a luxury to think about environmental issues. And I was in a position where I could work on that for so many others. And that felt super resonant to me. That's awesome.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's amazing. So three degrees originally was a spin-off of another company you were at. Yeah. And then you were leading the company until 2015. You were a CEO, and then you transitioned to chairman, focusing on long-term corporate strategies, strategic initiatives, risk management. Since then, the company has scaled significantly. And you worked really closely with Steve McDougal, amazing guy as CEO. And then recently your company appointed Philippe Vidrand as the new CEO. How do you articulate the shift in focus required to lead the seven-person board and manage long-term strategic risks, such as navigating geopolitical shifts and carbon markets, accelerating durable carbon removal solutions versus the demands of being the operator CEO?

Dan Kalafatas:

It's a piece of cake. No, I'm kidding.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah, you only work like what, 10 hours a week? That's it? No being shared.

Dan Kalafatas:

For sure. Look, a board's job is principally to hire and fire the CEO. And we had a huge XL after Philippe came on board. We hired the right guy. He's been excellent in that seat. And also to define strategy and then kind of govern management to make sure things don't go off the rails. We spent a ton of time on that front. I've really enjoyed recruiting independent directors to our board over the years. Our first was April Salas, then Amy Wyringa, Matt Rogers, we're in the market right now for somebody. So we really like bringing in independent, fresh outside thinking to expand our aperture, given that there is a lot of change right now, you know, macroeconomically at a global level in the United States, terrorists, inflation, sectorally, as we talked about at great length on this call, and change within our organization as well. And so having lots of diverse views around the table, I've really evolved cherishing that. And I spent a lot of my time thinking about how to cultivate that and do a better and better job in my own journey on that front.

Rajiv Parikh:

You know, from 2002 onward, you decided to focus your energy on renewable energy, right? And so your leadership is sustained to major policy shifts, as we talked about, legislative packages that may hamper the development of clean energy. You've gone through all kinds of things as you went through this. How have you cultivated long-term resilience and strategic patience necessary to invest and innovate in climate solutions, particularly when short-term pressures challenge you?

Dan Kalafatas:

Look, the reality of climate change is staying. It's forever. We are bequeathing it to our children and our brand children. And there are, I'll be a little extreme in the characterization, they're distractions like current politics at the moment, are distracting from getting to work on the current goal, at least, you know, US politics and elsewhere. And, you know, at some level, AI is another challenge. I might say a bit of a distraction from the core job of decarbonizing to mitigate the impacts of climate change on human beings. You know, I'll say as an aside, a lot of people say we need to save the earth. The earth's gonna be just fine. This is about saving ourselves.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah, the earth has a remarkable ability to adapt, right? It'll it'll keep adapting. But what is it gonna be for us?

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah. A big motivator for me is a prayer that I have, which is a prayer that our grandkids, your grandkids, and their children inherit only a debt of gratitude because our generation stared this problem in the face and addressed it. And this is a trillion-dollar design problem that is addressable in a generation. And so that's my North Star.

Rajiv Parikh:

I love that, Dan. So we always ask our guests to name a historical event or person or movement that inspires you. And you answered Nikitas Patrophanus Caliphatus, your grandfather. What in particular about him lights you up? I'm so proud of him.

Dan Kalafatas:

He was valedictorian of his engineering college in Perez, just outside of Athens. And for a whole set of reasons, economic and otherwise, he came to the US and waited tables for four years. Um, he didn't know the language. And his son, my father, got a master's degree from Harvard. It is the American dream. I'm really proud of my father as well. I should add that too. And that is part of the inherited tradition that I internalize. And so I bring to my work a desire to serve his dreams, both of their dreams, off in the future.

Rajiv Parikh:

Your grandfather decided to walk away from an advanced degree to take a risk. It's so beautiful. Okay, we now have some wonderful personal closures. What's a piece of conventional wisdom that everyone around you accepts, but you secretly think might be wrong?

Dan Kalafatas:

Well, I'm not so secret about this. I was actually just teaching a class at Darbet a bit on this topic. People have a view of leadership, like it's Zeus on the high mountain, all-knowing and issuing dictates from up above. But Rajiv, as you know well, good leadership, yes, it has vision, but it's humble in that it's soliciting a lot of input to get that, and it's empathetic. And I think people don't talk enough about empathy and leadership. And I'm talking about a time with customers that's empathetic. I'm talking about time certainly with employees, people in the leadership team. And it enables people's true hopes and dreams to get articulated and most creative thoughts to come out.

Rajiv Parikh:

I love that. That's a great way of thinking about it. It is not commands from the high, it's about aligning people together. And part of that is you have to listen.

Dan Kalafatas:

I often say, people, a dirty little secret about leadership is you're not the top of the pyramid. You're actually the bottom of the pyramid. You know, and and you know that.

Rajiv Parikh:

Especially if you want to be effective. Okay, if you could have a 30-minute conversation with any version of yourself from the past, what age would you pick and what would you want to discuss?

Dan Kalafatas:

I'd go back to my grad school self a little bit after when I was starting three degrees and implore that person to set up proper governance. I I'd tell that person, you know a lot less than you think you know. And then I'd I'd set up a whole bunch of things differently based on that.

Rajiv Parikh:

What would you do differently?

Dan Kalafatas:

I'd have a proper board, I'd attire risk systems, I'd bring in coaching earlier into my life. I was really convinced I knew what was best. And what's hard, when you start a company, so many people say no to you that you you do need to rely on that vision and the conviction and to ignore so many no's along the way. It's the only way you can survive that and actually build something that perseveres, but then that can become a liability. It was for me at least. So I wish I could have shaken that version of myself a long time ago. And some of my biggest mistakes in life came from that.

Rajiv Parikh:

It's amazing. It's a great way to think about it, is to risk adjust yourself a bit while not losing that fervor that you need to persuade people. So that's a it's a tough balance. Do you have a favorite life motto that you come back to and share with friends in work or life?

Dan Kalafatas:

The one that's coming to mind now is from Victor Frankel, who survived the Holocaust, uh, man's search for meaning, the you know, the purpose of life is the difference between what man is and what man can become. And I really like the idea of growth edge. And it's so good for if you're putting yourself on your growth edge, learning and growing for your psychology, for your you know, your well-being, and so forth. And so I encourage, you know, my kids and and people around me to do that.

Rajiv Parikh:

I don't know. What's the most useful thing you've learned from someone significantly younger than you? You have a few kids.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah. Six seven, six seven.

Rajiv Parikh:

None of us know what that means, and I don't think they do either.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah. But I can you can trust if if our kids saw this right now, they would be totally cringy.

Rajiv Parikh:

No, they'd be totally embarrassed, all red. You're so cringy.

Dan Kalafatas:

I think there's, you know, regardless of the age of the kids, there's just this playfulness that in the momentness that I think is really easy. We've all lost in our society as an adult. And so I think putting the phone down, detaching, dropping yourself to a cliff at 11,000 feet and being 100% present, also when you're in your own home. I think weaving that into the day is is really important.

Rajiv Parikh:

I just recently watched an Arthur Brooks five-minute Arthur Brooks video about we need to reinvent boredom. We need to bring boredom into our lives.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah, I tell my kids it's a beautiful thing. When they were younger, I'm bored, and you know, that's a beautiful thing. Sit in the boredom.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's when the most fun things, serendipitous things happen. He sells it as a deep thinking, a way to bring about greater meaning and purpose in your thinking. I think it's also a playfulness. It creates a playfulness just by sitting back and staring at someone or being in a room with folks and not having other stuff to do. It just creates.

Dan Kalafatas:

And you're a playful guy, Regit. You were very good at that in general.

Rajiv Parikh:

Well, thank you. But I I need to drop that phone as well. But so, Dan, I want to thank you for joining us today. Even though you're one of my closest friends, you were one of my toughest gets for this. And I appreciate you coming here and sharing what you've built over the years, your purpose, your drive, your leadership style, your views on some of the hottest topics with AI and renewable energy. So I really appreciate having you here today.

Dan Kalafatas:

Yeah, you bet. And let's not forget, this is a trillion dollar design challenge addressing climate change and we got. I love that. Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Rajiv Parikh:

That was truly inspiring. It's great for me when I get to sit up close over years and see this amazing person who has been inspired by one of the greatest challenges of our lifetime, which is dealing with the climate challenge, right? And he sees this, as he mentioned, as a trillion-dollar design challenge. And he's gone through so many situations in his life in terms of how he built up this business to meet that great purpose that he's established. And he's gone as far as even making his company a certain type of corporation, a B Corp. He's just continued to invest in different aspects that enable him to address the climate challenge and the decarbonization challenge. And it's inspiring to hear what got him into this, how he was floating along and found that great purpose in Abed and Jerry's book, which is really amazing. And then we get into some interesting nuggets during the conversation about the notion of things that I wouldn't have thought of, even though I've read so much about climate and the technologies behind it, is the notion of a virtual power plant and the ability in the contracts you establish to address some of the problem of peak demand and the costs associated with it, with arranging some of the terms appropriately so that you're looking at things from a 24-hour basis instead of a year-long basis. There's just really clever ways of solving this. And I love Dan's point about that with the emergence of AI and the explosion of power needed for AI, not just compute, but the power associated with it, that we have to do a wartime level motivation and how he's taken that with his own natural instincts, his own empathetic leadership style to build a company from scratch, work with amazing partners like his CEO Steven, with many of the folks he's brought in, his board. You should see the way he puts together boards, as well as his latest CEO transition to Philippe. I mean, it's just he's very thoughtful in every aspect of his life. So I was a little taken aback or a little surprised when he said, I wish I had given myself more of a teaching about governance and risk assessment, because I've seen him through a significant period of time where he's frankly more of a risk assessment person than I am. I really want to thank you all for joining us for this. This was really amazing to have a person like Dan here today. And I just want to let you know that we've also dropped our 50th episode of Spark of Ages. So the reason I started this was it was my gift to bring back from my experience of moving as a New Hampshire boy to a person in Silicon Valley and gotten a chance to experience my dreams of meeting people who are creating some of the greatest innovations on earth, trying to change the world. And I've gotten to learn so much about how these folks built their ideas, their businesses, their concepts, and about who they are as people and what motivates them and what sparks them, what drives them. And as a result of your support, we are now a top 10% podcast according to listen notes. And so, because of your feedback and comments, we've really honed in on innovation, leadership, AI, go to market. And those comments motivate me. Every time I get a text message from a friend or if I read a comment, I get more inspired every day to find the right stories to bring to you, the right people to bring to you. So thank you for being part of this journey. And so thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed today or any one of the ones, please take a moment to rate it and comment. It makes a huge difference for us. You can find us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon, everywhere podcasts can be found. The show is produced by Anand Shah and edited by Laura Ballant. I'm your host, Rajiv Parik from Position Squared, a leading growth marketing company based in Silicon Valley. We focus heavy on AI enablement of our processes and how we drive solutions for folks. And what people teach us has been directly incorporated in the things that we do. So come visit us at position2.com. This has been an F and funny production. They do fantastic work. They're in the middle of producing their first full feature like movie, so can't wait to talk about that. And we'll catch you next time. And remember, folks, be ever curious.

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