Spark of Ages

Alien Advantage: Pattern-Breaking Innovation/Manan Mehta, Rustam Esanov - Immigrants, Unshackled, mRNA+AI ~ Spark of Ages Ep 53

• Rajiv Parikh • Season 1 • Episode 53

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We explore how removing immigration friction and backing immigrant founders at day zero can produce outsized innovation, through the lens of a VC platform and a biotech founder reprogramming tumors with mRNA and AI. The conversation blends policy, venture economics, and a bold oncology thesis with practical advice and personal stories.

• immigrant advantage as resilience, clarity, and risk appetite
• Unshackled’s Day Zero model and economics
• technical visionaries and system disruptors archetypes
• turning tumors into immune allies with mRNA and AI
• off the shelf approach across solid tumors
• storytelling skills for technical CEOs
• curated community as capital and catalyst
• immigration policy takes on points systems and talent pipelines
• why fear based rules hurt innovation
• reflections on curiosity, kindness, and grit

What happens when you bet on a founder before there’s a product, revenue, or even a company? We bring together Manan Mehta, founding partner at Unshackled Ventures, and Rustam Esanov, co-founder and CEO of Reprogram Biosciences, to unpack how day‑zero investing meets deep tech ambition—and how that mix can upend cancer therapy.

Manan opens the curtain on Unshackled’s model: underwrite immigrant founders when capital and confidence are scarcest, handle immigration legal end‑to‑end, and curate a community that knows when to introduce the next believer. He breaks down their two founder archetypes—technical visionaries and system disruptors—plus the quotients that matter: intelligence, adversity, emotional, and social. We dig into why early belief earns better economics, how consensus‑driven VC misses mispriced opportunities, and what it takes to move a company from a first experiment to a milestone investors can’t ignore.

Rustam shares the personal spark behind his mission and the science powering it. Using AI‑guided design and mRNA, his team aims to reprogram tumor cells into immune‑like allies, opening the “fortress” from the inside so the body can attack solid tumors. He explains why an off‑the‑shelf approach beats personalization for scale, how early out‑of‑pocket experiments de‑risked the thesis, and the single most practical lesson he learned transitioning from bench science to CEO: tell a story so clear a teenager can understand it. 

Manan Mehta: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mananm/

Manan Mehta is the Founding Partner of Unshackled Ventures, the only inception-stage (pre-revenue, pre-product, pre-incorporation) venture fund focused entirely on backing immigrant-founded startups.  For over 11 years, Manan has led the firm, which provides capital, network access, and full immigration support, having sponsored over 300 immigration filings for founders, often before they incorporate their businesses.

Rustam Esanov:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/rustamesanov/

Rustam Esanov is the CEO and Co-founder of Reprogram Biosciences, a deep-tech company developing mRNA reprogramming therapeutics.  His mission is to turn tumors into immune-like allies to treat solid cancers by leveraging a proprietary AI platform to build a precision cell-reprogramming engine to solve one of the most complex challenges in medicine.

Website: https://www.position2.com/podcast/

Rajiv Parikh: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajivparikh/

Sandeep Parikh: https://www.instagram.com/sandeepparikh/

Email us with any feedback for the show: sparkofages.podcast@position2.com

Manan Mehta:

US immigration is still the best in the world. And it will be that way.

Rajiv Parikh:

Even with all the stuff that's going on, it's still the best in the world.

Manan Mehta:

Yeah, it's the best way. No other country has such promising immigration policy or access to it, right? There are pathways always opening up.

Rustam Esanov:

We came with nothing essentially with backpacks to pursue our PhD and get technical skills in different areas of biology and chemistry. And now we're combining those skills to solve one of the toughest challenges in medicine.

Manan Mehta:

The conditions around entering the country have changed a lot in the last 10 years. But when they do enter here, you do find people that are hunger, ambitious, and have a unique self-belief that I think really is reflective of taking on the impossible.

Rajiv Parikh:

Welcome to the Spark of Ages podcast. Today we're digging into the extraordinary force we call the immigrant advantage, a convergence of technical genius, deep resilience, and radical clarity of purpose that is fueling innovation in the US. My goal and our goal is to understand the infrastructure and conviction required to unlock the potential of these amazing deep tech founders. We're asking how do you remove the overwhelming cognitive load of bureaucracy so founders can dedicate 100% of their bandwidth to sparking innovation? To do this, we're bringing together the investor who built the platform to solve this problem and an amazing deep tech founder who leveraged it to build a category-defining biotech company. Our guests today are Manan Mehta and Rustam Esanov. Manan is the founding partner of Unshackled Ventures, the only inception stage venture fund focused entirely on backing immigrant-founded startups. And that's right, they are pre-revenue, pre-product, and pre-incorporation. For over 11 years, Manan has led the firm, along with my good friend Nitin, which provides capital, network access, and full immigration support, having sponsored over 300 immigration filings for founders, often before they incorporate their businesses. Rustam Esanov is the CEO and co-founder of Reprogram Biosciences, a deep tech company developing mRNA reprogramming therapeutics. His mission is to turn tumors into immune-like allies to treat solid cancers by leveraging a proprietary AI platform to build a precision cell reprogramming engine to solve one of the most complex challenges in medicine, cancer. He holds a PhD in molecular and cellular pharmacology from the University of Miami, Miller School of Medicine. And he also earned his bachelor's degree in biological sciences from Fatih University in Istanbul. Rustam and Manan, welcome to the Spark of Ages.

Manan Mehta:

Thank you. Thank you for having us, Rajiv. It's an honor here. Thank you.

Rajiv Parikh:

I've been wanting to have you guys, or at least Manan here for a long time. I've known him for quite some time and really impressed me from the beginning as to how he felt immigrants can change the world. So I'm really happy to bring this to you today. So, Manan, I'm going to hit you with a bit of a contrarian question. Unshackled's value prop is to remove the burden of dealing with the U.S. immigration system. Beyond the legal fees, which the fund covers, how would you quantify the lost bandwidth that is drained from founders and how much faster do founders accelerate when that load is lifted?

Manan Mehta:

First of all, I really appreciate the question. And I think it's it's actually more nuanced than we might think about. And let's think about the starting point for an immigrant entrepreneur. They left their home country, right? That act in and of itself is an entrepreneurial act. That's an act that requires sacrifice, but also self-belief, right? And so when you marry those two qualities and they can find a way to be in the United States, albeit the conditions around entering the country have changed a lot in the last 10 years. But when they do enter here, you do find people that are hunger, ambitious, and have a unique self-belief that I think really is reflective of taking on the impossible. One of the philosophies that I'm starting to adopt and crediting this to Scott Galloway, uh Prof. G, is that America's best promise is to water as many seeds as possible, not predicting which will become a redwood, right? And those are immigrants. And so immigration is just one of those hurdles along the journey, right? Not every founder has heroic, overcoming stories of immigration and adversity. Some might have a very linear path. It could be marriage, right? Marrying an American. But I think what the bigger challenge immigrants face is a lack of network and resources and a believer that will underwrite that friends and family stage. And so, as somebody who's born and raised in Silicon Valley, I'm 41 years old and have watched it kind of grow into what it is. I think the bigger challenge that we have today is that many multi-generational or native-born people, when they want to start their company and they're going through all the challenges and the mindset and the fear, they have friends and family that might write that first quarter million dollar check. Immigrants certainly do not, by and large. And so I think the real opportunity here is to use the curiosity of what brought somebody here and underwrite it. You know, end of the day, I'll say this US immigration is still the best in the world. And it will be that way.

Rajiv Parikh:

Even with all the stuff that's going on, it's still the best in the world.

Manan Mehta:

Yeah, it's the best way. No other country has such promising immigration policy or access to it, right? There are pathways always opening up. And so, yes, we are changing. We are we're watching some changes happen, but we have to remember the current population of immigrants in the country is 15.4%. That is the highest it's ever been in this country. And that begs questions. I don't think we disagree on who we want immigrants here. I think there's a conversation to be had around who gets to be in and when. I think that's what you're experiencing right now. I don't think it's always a bad thing to have a conversation. So maybe a little bit contrarian. I might agree with some of this administration on some of what they're doing.

Rajiv Parikh:

We're definitely going to get into that. That's going to be uh you have a whole section for that. It's going to be fun. But thank you for opening with that because it is really important to understand what, and we'll get into even more of that, what got you into this and why you found this an interesting way to create a fun? So, Rustam, your team's journey is encapsulated by the phrase from two backpacks to building a biotech. When you first arrived in the US, what was the most shocking realization you experienced between the sheer lack of resources and the massive ambition needed to tackle a deep tech problem like transforming cancer cells?

Rustam Esanov:

That's a good question. When I came to the US, I was 20 years old, you know, ready to pursue my PhD and start my career in biotech. But really, I wasn't thinking about starting a company or anything like that. For me, the goal was to come here, get my degree, and stay here permanently. That was my number one goal. And it just sort of happened throughout my career that I started to learn more about cancer, why certain treatments don't work as well in some patients. And sort of through curiosity and then speaking with other founders, being in a bay, you you get this exposure to many different scientists and entrepreneurs. So it sort of evolved as as the time went by. And I'm super fortunate that my co-founder actually, I knew him from back in in high school, back in Turkmenistan, where I'm originally from. So we kind of went through the same journey. We came with nothing essentially with backpacks to pursue our PhD and get technical skills in different areas of biology and chemistry. And now we're combining those skills to solve one of the toughest challenges in medicine.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's amazing, Rustam. I mean, you actually work with someone who you went to high school with and got your PhDs together, which is really fabulous. Before Unshackled Invest in you, what was the most difficult personal sacrifice or financial constraint you had to do to overcome so that reprogrammed biosciences could continue, particularly since biotech innovation requires significant initial resources?

Rustam Esanov:

As a first-time entrepreneur, it was extremely hard to raise our first fundraising round, a pleased round. And it was around the time when it was peak uncertainty, right? Trump just came into office, Liberation Day, all the investors are getting called. So for me, I have to quit my job essentially with no investor commitments. So we didn't have any investor that has committed capital and kind of go in at it full-time with no backup plan. We did have some savings that would last maybe a year, a year and a half, because we're used to living a frugal life, me and my friend.

Rajiv Parikh:

You were at a pretty good company, right? You were at GSK.

Rustam Esanov:

Yes.

Rajiv Parikh:

You were at a pretty good company, but you smartly built up your savings before you went on this venture.

Rustam Esanov:

Yes, yes. I specifically decided to quit after I get my bonus check. So that that kind of helps. Well, I kind of did perfectly in that regard. But yeah, it was it was a lot of uncertainty. We just didn't know whether we're gonna make it or not. But super, super fortunate to meet Manan and his team. And now we're we're off to the races.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's amazing. I love how you you know you think about these things because having been an entrepreneur myself, biotech is one of those things where you're just you know you gotta pour in a lot of capital and spend a lot of time before you get results out. So I think it's really gutsy what you did. So for Manan, you know, Unshackled was founded on the conviction that backing immigrant founders on day zero, when capital and competitive pressure are lowest, would create category-defining companies. The venture landscape today is characterized by capital abundance and rising valuation. So, how does anchoring your entire investment model at the day zero stage, where there's typically no product, no revenue, no customers, allow you to capture better economics? And then you can get into IJ pick rush stuff. Biotech is hard.

Manan Mehta:

I think we have to remind ourselves venture capital is an industry that should be promoting risk taking, right? If you want annuity style returns and beta, you should go invest in the public market so you'll probably do better, right? Venture capital is about asymmetric outcomes. I think the biggest problem right now in venture capital, as a as a as a criticism, is it's 40 years or so old. As many financial services industries become at 40 years, they become concentrated power. And concentrated abundance is really what we're in. I personally believe in distributed abundance, right? I think that's the counterpoint, and that's that's the heritage of Silicon Valley, it's the heritage of venture capital. When you think about the potentiality of human beings, it's the story of Nvidia, the story of Moderna, the story of Doordash, all immigrant founders that have built these massive redwoods that we all use every day in some way. But what they all need is someone to believe as if they had friends and family, the way that a multi-generational American might have, right? It's those dark moments, those quiet moments between, as Rustam described, new administration, I gotta quit. Should I do it? Do I have savings? It's those moments that if you can capture the entrepreneurial like belief and invest in it, you actually are really looking like at the starting line again. And that is why the economics work. And I actually told this to Rustam, we got coffee in San Francisco after the investment. I admit this, right? We are probably more expensive than the average fund out there for you. And I told them there's a reason for it. If we become cheaper, if we write bigger checks at higher valuations, then it's unlikely I will be able to bet on you again. Because I'll have to wait for more progress, wait for more signals. And that is the biggest problem with venture capital. It is a bunch of consensus-driven investment. They're looking for high signal. And as a result, the price goes up because everyone's friends are impressive that are GPs. But I think there takes a little bit of challenge of status quo. And this is the joy of it, right? It's you're unearthing the untold story. And there's a lot of stories Rustam D will tell, hopefully, this podcast that really gives you a much stronger indication of why he's here than the problem he's solving, right? And I think that's what you underwrite. And when you underwrite that, you're effectively getting in at the ground floor of something that might ultimately become the next big redwood.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's amazing. And we definitely need to get into those stories. So, Mana, you're also launching a new podcast this year called Believe in Aliens. And you have this notion of a founder archetype framework. There's the technical visionary, high IQ, high AQ, so IQ intelligence, AQ adversity quotient, and the system disruptors, like high EQ, emotional quotient, slash SQ, social quotient. Which one is most likely to have that crucial alien perspective needed to find a mispriced opportunity that the non-immigrant ecosystem misses entirely?

Manan Mehta:

Which one's most likely? So, well, look, over the 11 years we whittle down we're going to help and invest in immigrants that have immigration and capital constraint problems. To now we're investing in two specific archetypes, system disruptors and technical visionaries. As an approximation, there are more technical visionaries in this country that are immigrants than perhaps system disruptors, at least those that show up in venture capital. Why? Because the most common pathway and entry point for specifically technical immigrant founders is through our university system, right? They're coming in for, as Rustam said, a PhD program, right? There's a technical capacity that they're trying to develop to overcome and maybe build a career here. System disruption, I think, takes a little bit longer to understand that you can do it, right? And that's why we think about EQ and SQ there. That is about galvanizing supporters around you, building your networks, building your group of people. I think when you think about those who are system disruptors in our portfolio, you tend to see people that have spent more time in the industry really dissecting it to first principles, or they have a very unique intelligence background that helps them understand things in a way that no one else can. However, technical visionaries are more obvious because their degrees are reflective of what technical skill they've built. And so I think there's balances to both, but ultimately, if you're a technical visionary, someday you want to be a system disruptor too. Right. If Rustam is successful, he will disrupt the entire way we think about cancer treatment. And that's a disruption. I'll get RFK Jr. happy too.

Rajiv Parikh:

Right. It'll be a fundamental disruption. It'll be a big change. So really what you're saying is technical visionaries and social disruptors are two characteristics you want. This is what you're looking for. This is versus not having them. It may be more of a something that looks like a traditional business. Maybe you could characterize that.

Manan Mehta:

Yeah, so what is it not, right? At the end of the day, these archetypes, uh, I think they have attributes, right? Technical visionaries is that we're willing to underwrite technical risk of proving something that they think, in this case, who stum thinks is possible. But we are underwriting affect you that journey. Should he prove it, by the way, there is so much capital out there for him waiting, right? He knows it. Like if he can prove this in mouse models or anywhere else, they're waiting. We are willing to do, by the way, what universities used to fund for a long time, technical breakthroughs. Currently, that's getting more challenging, which makes early stage venture capital really interesting. System disruptors tend to be people that have spent time in the industry, understand the stakeholders, who could pay for what? Why won't they pay? And they have this lifelong purpose that shows up as to why they're doing it. And so it's not a lot of voyeurism in the end, right? It's not like I just thought as an idea and I want to build a consumer app. No offense, does work. I get it. There needs to be something that keeps you up at night to move forward, right? And I think that's those are the traits that we're looking for. And then we measure them ultimately through our quotient framework, which allows us to be a psychology investor.

Rajiv Parikh:

No, it's really cool. And you guys have worked this out over a long time. I don't think you originally came in thinking that, but I think you found it as you went, which is really cool. So maybe both of you respond to this. So, Manan, you seek to break pattern biases by backing entrepreneurs with unique perspective or insight. And Rustam, your core scientific insight involves turning cancer cells into immune allies. Just totally just think about that again. Cancer cells into immune allies. This high risk, high reward approach fundamentally challenges established therapeutic paradigms in oncology. So, Rustam, what unique insight from your background or research led you to this potentially pattern-breaking idea? How did you successfully articulate the clarity of your purpose to convince an early investor like Manan that this path was viable? Or did he just really like you after you met him?

Rustam Esanov:

I don't know. You're gonna have to ask him. But yeah, great question. So for me, the the journey to start reprogram biosciences really started from a personal experience. You know, someone from my family faced cancer. And as a result of that, you know, you start doing your research, trying to understand why certain therapies work. There's always a subpopulation of patients that don't respond to therapies. And then you look on, you prepare for the worst case scenario, right? What would happen if they don't respond? Me being a scientist, I was at an advantage because I could look into approaches that are not necessarily approved right now, but are being tested in a clinic to see what is the next most promising thing. And for me, what was kind of frustrating to see is that a lot of the approaches that are being tested in a clinic, they're sort of like incremental improvement to the standard of care.

Rajiv Parikh:

I mean, basically, right? A lot of these treatments are you get another six months.

Rustam Esanov:

Exactly, may get another year.

Rajiv Parikh:

And it's terrible during that time that you're getting treated.

Rustam Esanov:

Exactly, exactly. So to me, I I kind of wanted to think outside of the box and see what we could do for cancer patients so that they have another option that is fundamentally different, high risk, high reward, as you said. But if it works, it would be a game changer. And again, I was fortunate to have a technical understanding of cell reprogramming. That's how you change cell identity and give a cell a new function, let's say. So that's what sparked the idea of turning tumors into allies. And initially, once once I quit my job, I did pay for some experiments out of pocket to kind of test pressure test the idea to see if it works. And we got some promising results. And with that, we were able to approach Manan and his team. I don't know if it was the results that convinced them or something else, but super, super happy that it worked out in the end.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah, Manan, maybe you want to respond. Like what motivated you? I mean, you guys see tons and tons of ideas. You guys have a great way of capturing people who apply for opportunities to work with unshackled. So, what made Rustam stand out?

Manan Mehta:

End of the day, if you're curious to know about a person, you realize that person's not going to waste their time on something that can't be done or that they can't do themselves. And so, more than the results mattering to us, I don't know how to read clinical outcomes or what they do. I can you can teach me, but at the stage where we invest, we're really underwriting that founder self-belief. And he clearly proved to us that he was willing to spend the time, quit his job, spend his money, prove that it works. And now he wants to do this for the next decade. What our job is to uncover is the why. Why do you care? Because ultimately that's what's going to keep him going when it gets really hard. And when you uncover that, that's what you underwrite. Everyone experiences people's whys differently, and they all will have their own subjective experience with it. But in the case of Rustam, there's a really clear distinction between technical gift that he has and the humility to keep on being curious to learn more. Right? Those combinations, when you know you can evaluate, he said it. I could evaluate all these therapies out there, and they may not work, but now I have curiosity, spend my own money and time on trying to figure out what would work. Those are, I think, the most consistent attributes of great entrepreneurs. They know their life work matters here, and then they know that their life work only takes them so far. So they better get curious, right? And I think that's what you ultimately invest in, right? And part of what you also appreciate about Rustam is h e started his PhD at 20. I don't know if you you remember, like, I don't know anyone who's 20 that started their PhD. Let me just like that is ungodly early in life. And so how? Why? Rustam, tell me more. What did it take? Why'd you do this? You start to uncover something that happens to most of us at a much older age. In his teens, he was building his adversity muscle. He was building his self belief and you underwrite it, right? You you price the risk and you underwrite it.

Rajiv Parikh:

So maybe Rustam, you could just talk a little bit more about what you're doing. Cause like traditional biotech development cycles can be 10, 12 years before you get to even a decent stage. But with mRNA and AI. There's a potentially different and maybe faster way of getting answers. And you did some of that work to prove that. So maybe you could just talk a little bit about the technology behind this or your thinking behind this.

Rustam Esanov:

Totally agree with you. I think AI and some of the genetic technologies and developments there allow us to move much faster than it was possible, let's say, 20 even 10 years ago. So maybe I can go talk a little bit about our approach and how we're different from everyone else's doing. I like to use analogies. Essentially, what cancer is, it's a war. You have a battle between cancer cells in your body and your immune cells that are the soldiers that are trained to recognize and attack tumor cells. Now, cancer, as they grow, they build this sort of fortress, especially with solid tumors. They build a fortress around it so that your immune system cannot recognize it anymore. And they're very good at it. Existing therapies, what they try to do is they try to break the walls of this fortress from outside. So what we're doing is we're trying to treat tumor from inside. So we actually go inside the fortress and try to convince some of the soldiers to turn onto our side. We tell them, give them instructions in a form of mRNA and tell them, tell us your secret. How do you evade the immune system? How can we recognize you better? And with that, they kind of sort of like open the gates to their fortress and now your immune system can attack it. So that's kind of a simple way of explaining what we do.

Rajiv Parikh:

Help me with this, because I've seen other cancer cell therapeutic companies. I helped one years ago from a marketing point of view and describing what they do. Are you doing something which is custom that you take a biopsy of a cancer cell in a particular body and then you find a way to reprogram the mRNA? Is that a fair way of looking at it? Or are you looking at something much more that can work across any cancer cell?

Rustam Esanov:

Exactly. So we're not going after a personalized space where you have to change your approach depending on the patient. We're developing something that would be applicable more broadly. So what we have identified with the help of computational methods, AI, and some synthetic biology experiments, we're able to identify a set of mRNA genes that can transform or reprogram cancer cells into immune-like cells. That set of mRNAs is so far, it's working across multiple tumor types that we've tested in cells and also now in mice. So the idea is to have off-the-shelf therapeutic that could be injected into multiple solid tumors. We don't have to change anything. And then we would let the mRNA do the job and trick the tumor cells into thinking that they're on our side and help cure disease.

Rajiv Parikh:

So this is much more fundamental. This could literally be a drug that you buy or a drug that you get prescribed and it's injected in your body. So it's that fundamental. Okay, so for both of you, for immigrant scientists and researchers, one of the biggest challenges is not the breakthrough itself, but the frameworks needed to translate that science into a venture-scale company, specifically shifting from what I built to what problem this is solved for and for whom. So, Rustam, as a founder with deep technical roots, what was the most practical piece of go-to-market advice you received from the unshackled team that helped you define your product's market and value proposition?

Rustam Esanov:

I think the the best kind of advice that I got, and I gotten many, and Manan and I are in touch for quite some time now. What he told me in that first meeting was that your job now, as like you're you're not a scientist anymore, right? You you have to be able to tell a compelling story. And that story needs to be is so easily digestible that even a teenager with no technical background should be able to understand. So I think about that a lot, and I'm still uh kind of working through it, but I think it's an important skill for a CEO and a founder to have to be able to attract attention and capital. And I think that's something that a lot of technical founders maybe lack in the beginning, and they they kind of learn as they continue to grow their business.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's amazing. Man, you and Nitin have described Unshackled. It's a full service platform from providing capital, immigration support, access to a tight-knit community. You believe a lot of what drives venture success is who you know and when. So for deep tech companies like Reprogram Biosciences, they face long development cycles. Although he talked about how he's speeding that up and significant technical and fundraising hurdles. How does being embedded within unshackled, unique community of immigrant founders rather than the general Silicon Valley network act as a vital resource that helps mitigate risk and accelerate growth?

Manan Mehta:

Look, I think our job as an organization, as a fund is fundamentally to be a lead gen company. So you like marketing, let's talk about marketing. What is a good lead gen company? You can source your own leads, you can price them better than anybody else, and then you can sell them off to somebody else. That is venture capital. We are reliant, and part of the advice that I gave to Rustam is we are reliant on him raising more money. You've asked the question a couple of times as well. It is capital intensive. We all know this, eyes wide open. He's aware of it, I'm aware of it, you're aware of it. That means we need other people to believe. And so the most important role that we play is to be the first believer and then work with the founders as they're working through their technical milestones. And then quote unquote, sell the lead to another investor, right? In his case, it's likely going to be somebody in biotech. We know that, right? We know that pretty clearly. It's not going to be a generalist firm probably too soon, right? And so understanding the equation that needs to be solved for this stage is what we do. You're not going to see me have profound advice at your series B stage. What you will see means that I'll remember you from the day we bet on you. And I'll remember you as a human and I'll help you there. But I'm not going to have this wise sage advice on how you go from series B to series C. I need to rely on the adventure capital ecosystem to do this, right? And so I think really the magic of Unshackled is really embedded in this age-old theory of someone's going to source, someone's going to price, and someone's got to sell. And the more efficiently you do that, it's better for the founder, it's better for us, it's better for our LPs, right? Because if someone else buys into the company, we all get a markup typically, right? We're investing so low, and that means the company's worth more for Rustam as well, right? So it actually lines up the incentive structures really well. And I think this is what the magic is. And serving that need ends up requiring not a generalized platform, right? It requires unique understanding of what Rustam is going to want to overcome, who are the people that help him, and when is the right time to introduce those people to him? That's the magic, right? It's it's personalized, it's curated, it's not one size fits all, it's not an accelerator. It is about understanding the human need because we're not investing in just biotech companies. We're investing in things that are do things like logistics and transportation and robotics. Space. You've done space too, yeah. We have to be connected. And so, long answer to say our job is to be trusted. And when you're trusted, you learn a lot more and you can help a lot faster.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's brilliant. All right, thank you for that, both of you. Great answers, great responses, everything I ever hoped for. So now we're gonna talk about your opinions about US legal immigration policy. So, Mana, you touched on this a little earlier. Here goes. We're gonna have some fun here. We're debating that deeply polarized high-stake world of US legal immigration policy. For high skilled workers and founders, the current system is a bureaucratic maze that directly impacts the global race for talent and innovation. Our guest today live this reality. We've compiled some controversial opinions that challenge the system's core assumptions, from the economic logic of the H1B lottery to the moral implications of green card backlogs. Get ready to debate. Is US immigration policy a critical engine of economic growth, or is it an outdated political barrier that actively pushes away the world's best and brightest? So here we go. All employment-based green cards or permanent residency should be issued on a points-based system tied directly to a national RD scorecard. Criteria should be heavily favor, patents filed, scientific publications in high-impact journals, and capital raised, not just a job offer, thus prioritizing national scientific competitiveness over simple labor market demand.

Manan Mehta:

Manan, you want to start? Yeah, look, 43% of PhD scientists, engineers are immigrants. 30% of all STEM students are immigrants, or then half the US unicorns are immigrant founded. Immigrants work harder, they create more value, they created your COVID vaccine, your EV machine, your microchips, and your cloud software. Immigrants have done all of that. And so that's the people we want. Those are the job creators. We all know this. You don't create jobs without new companies. Verizon to lay off people, Amazon to lay off people, they're not going to create more jobs anymore. You need new startups. And so if the pathway is to preserve those who are inventors and creators and innovators, then let's give them a green card. I don't mind a scorecard that ultimately prioritizes invention and innovation because that is America's national advantage. It's immigrants. That's awesome.

Rajiv Parikh:

Rustam.

Rustam Esanov:

I agree. And in retrospect, that probably would have made it way easier for me to get a green card and for my co-founder as well, if that was the case. So yeah, I couldn't agree more with what Manan said.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's a great answer. That means there's a lot of families not getting green cards. But, anyways, let's go to the next question. Any US university that accepts federal research grants and enrolls international PhD students like Rustam should be financially obligated to fund a portion of the national immigrant-founded startup ecosystem. They profit from the talent pipeline, yet abandon the graduates when their F1 visas expire.

Rustam Esanov:

Strongly agree. You know, I think I love the fact that I was able to get my degree. And then also I did a short postdoc after my PhD. But I do think, you know, scientists in my area in biotechnology, they do get paid way less. You can say when you're a PhD, maybe part of your salary goes to tuition. But uh as a postdoc, once you leave, once you graduate, I really think a lot of universities benefit from postdocs and immigrant postdocs primarily. So I think if there was a way to fund the startups, or if there were more unshackled funds, that would be a good thing for everyone.

Manan Mehta:

All right. Running, that's a great answer. I love it. I'm on board. More unshackled, more fun for unshackled, more entrepreneurs. I think what you're hearing kind of undergirding all this is that immigrants aren't looking for handouts, they're looking for opportunity, right? And that's what's being described.

Rajiv Parikh:

Definitely. But in Rustam's case, he worked for a company first, right? So it wasn't clear at the time that he's gonna go start a company.

Rustam Esanov:

Yeah, so for me, that's true. But to get to company, like a lot of companies won't hire you unless you have the right paperwork. So a lot of PhD students end up doing their postdocs, immigrant PhD students, just to stay in the country and get their citations and publications to be able to apply for a green card. And then the green card is their golden ticket to industry. At least that was the case for me and many of my friends.

Rajiv Parikh:

Love that. That's a great point. Okay, so the next point the US is losing the global war for talent, especially recently. The most effective and least controversial reform would be for Congress to abandon all current proposals and simply adopt Canada's point-based market-responsive immigration system, word for word, accepting the loss of national uniqueness for the sake of economic competitiveness. All right, Manan, you've thought about this.

Manan Mehta:

Yeah, look, Canadian GDP, Canadian economy, Canadian population is vastly different than ours. I think that's just that's a bad starting point, despite what in the first administration, the Trump administration, he talked about the point-based system. I think an application level doesn't make any sense. And to the first point that you made around the US is losing, I disagree with that premise. I do not think so. I think it's gotten different and more challenging. I think there is more opportunity globally, but I think there's something that is unique about why the resurgence of San Francisco, the Bay Area again, AI boom. There's a culture, there is a risk-taking attitude, and there's also a market large enough to serve to make sense of the risk that you're willing to take. You're seeing more unicorns, yes, certainly around the world. Yeah, we might see a 20 to 40% decline in student enrollment for international students this year. That's what we're anticipating. That is going to be a challenge. But let me remind people that if that happens, we're still in post-2015 enrollment numbers for immigrants. And before that strike still came, right? Tesla still came. So there's still something about the culture and the opportunity of America that I think will transcend this administration or the next, regardless of politics. And I think ultimately it's the private sector's job to show up and be a part of the solution. We have to do our part. We can't rely on government for all the inflow and outflow. We have to tell the government sometimes what's best for the country.

Rajiv Parikh:

That's right. Rustam, do you have something you want to add to that?

Rustam Esanov:

I mean, Manan is way more educated on this topic than I am. I trust him completely. I guess take a more zoomed-out view. From what I see, I don't think the United States is losing their place as the number one destination for talent in IPACSO.

Rajiv Parikh:

All right. That's a bold statement. I love it. The biggest legal hurdle for immigrant founders isn't the visa itself, but the cultural and legal mistrust of foreign investment and capital entering U.S. markets. Restrictive policies designed to protect national security often unintentionally choke off the initial seed funding needed by early stage companies.

Manan Mehta:

I don't think that's the biggest challenge at all. I think the challenge is much more domestic and capital from here. I think whether CIF YES or all the rules that you've seen kind of come up, I think there's a necessary evil to it, right? We've seen some real, real national security challenges with foreign capital, foreign investment. That's not what's short-changing immigrants here.

Rajiv Parikh:

Great point.

Manan Mehta:

It's about capital coming from domestic sources. And to be clear, there's a lot of capital in the United States and evidenced by the numbers. And so I think we have to kind of take more of an internal view here and not blame the world for if we're seeing any slowdown innovation.

Rajiv Parikh:

All right. I'm going to go to the next question. And Rustam, I want you to start with this one. Permanent residency or green card should come with a five-year probationary clause for employment-based applicants. If the individual, particularly a founder or investor, has not demonstrated created a significant number of US jobs or achieved a revenue milestone within that period, their permanent status should be subject to review and potential revocation.

Rustam Esanov:

Well, I disagree with that. I think five years is too short. And as we know, entrepreneurship is not about succeeding 100% of the time. It's about trying, right? As we know, startups fail. So strongly, strongly disagree.

Rajiv Parikh:

Strongly disagree as well. I love that, you know, we're trying to push for results, but we got to get the kinds of folks who will make mistakes, screw up. I mean, Edison didn't hit it the first time, Henry Ford didn't hit it the first time. You got to give multiple shots on goal.

Manan Mehta:

Any policy of fear limits the country, right? And America is the land of opportunity. And so we got to be really, really careful on implementing policy of fear. Because if you're worried about your status, you're not going to push as hard. And so I just want to be careful on drawing that line.

Rajiv Parikh:

I appreciate that. All right. You both give great answers. Appreciate your points of view. I know we were trying to push you a bit. Now we're going to move to what we call the spark tank. Welcome to the spark tank. Today we jump into the minds of two leaders who demonstrate extreme sustained competitiveness, not just in business, but in life's most rigorous intellectual and strategic arenas. First, we have Manan Mehta, founding partner of Unshackled Ventures. We are also joined by Rustam Esanov, CEO and co-founder of Reprogram Biosciences. Gentlemen, your careers from global science competitions to day zero investing are defined by your ability to dominate extreme mental challenges. You succeed by finding the one decisive truth where others only see risk or impossibility. But for now, we're setting aside the challenges of day zero investing and deep tech breakthroughs to tackle the wildest form of human competition. We're going head to head on unreal competitors. The real, the weird, and the truly committed events found around the world. So this is called the unreal competitors. Let's see if that truly brilliant ability to spot a massive non-consensus truth is as sharp in competitive cheese rolling as it is in billion-dollar biotech. Here we go. It's called Unreal Competitors. All right, guys, this is a game of two truths and a lie. Two are true, one is a lie. Your job is to identify the lie. So after reading all three, I'm going to count down three, two, and one. And you're going to put up your finger so you can't cheat at the same time and tell me which one is the lie. All right. And then I'm going to score this for about three questions and see who the winner is. You ready?

Rustam Esanov:

All right. Let's do it.

Rajiv Parikh:

Here's question one. Every year in the northern Finnish city of Ulu, people from around the world compete in the Air Guitar World Championships, where they're judged on how convincingly they shred an invisible guitar in front of thousands of fans under the midnight sun. Number two, in Switzerland, there's a fondue fling where contestants catapult molten cheese at targets. And whoever hits a ball with the most drips wins a year's supply of fondue. And there's number three, in England's Cooper's Hill cheese rolling event, people chase a rolling wheel of cheese down a hill so steep that the cheese can hit around 70 miles per hour, and spectators sometimes get injured just standing there. Okay, so one is air guitar, two is fondue fling, three is cheese rolling. You ready? Three, two, one. I got two for Manan and one for Rustam. So, Manan, why did you pick two?

Manan Mehta:

It just felt like the Swiss would never want to hurt their cheese. Like, I just think they want to protect their cheese. Like, I felt what the Swiss do. They're too kind, too neutral. Why would they do this? Make those.

Rajiv Parikh:

Rustam, why'd you think the air guitar one was false?

Rustam Esanov:

I tried to picture it and doesn't sound like something Finnish people would do, but I might be wrong.

Rajiv Parikh:

Sounded to be too much of Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. Okay, so the lie is number two. So Mana wins this one. There is no documented Swiss cheese fondue fling catapult called multiple keys and target bells. It sounds like something they should have on a future food network special, though. So number one, the air guitar world championship in Finland. Since 1996, Ulu has hosted a world championship where competitors mime guitar solos with no instrument at all, scored on airness, stage presence, and how hard they sell the invisible shredding to a roaring crowd. Winners even get a real custom guitar as their prize. Number three, so the cheese rolling in England at Cooper's Hill in Gloucestershire. Organizers send a heavy double Gloucester cheese down a brutally steep hill. People sprint and tumble after it. And the first to the bottom wins the cheese with broken bones and dramatic wipeouts so common. The event has become infamous worldwide. All right, so I got one from Anan. All right, here's question two. There's a real dance your PhD competition where scientists must explain their doctoral thesis entirely through interpretive dance with cash prizes and online voting for the best performance. Wish them you might have had to do that. Number two, a popular science outreach event called March Mammal Madness, which runs just like NCAA March Madness, but instead of basketball teams, academics and students bent on simulated animal battles like honey badger versus elephant seal. And number three is the brain freeze bowl. It is an annual neuroscience contest where graduate students drink slushies until they get an ice cream headache, then race to draw a diagram of which blood vessels are causing their pain on a whiteboard. Okay, so one is the dancer PhD competition, two is the March Mammal Madness, and three is Brain Freeze Bowl. Ready? Three, two, one. Which one's fault? All right, I got a tie for three. Rustam, why did you think three was just complete BS?

Rustam Esanov:

So I just don't see grad students trying to hurt themselves. I mean, brain theories is painful. Not everyone is a neuroscientist to be able to draw a Of brain structure and vessels.

Rajiv Parikh:

So uh I think it's neuroscience angle. Manan, what about you?

Manan Mehta:

One feels like PhDs wanna do anything and get more dates, so they'll dance for sure, right? That helps them get dates. Number two, it just feels like a low effort, low intensity type of thing that could be entertaining in March Madness because they're not probably watching basketball. And number three, look, the idea of drawing cellular structures is not that interesting to PhDs. Like they don't care. So why would they do it, right? Why doesn't make any sense? It's intellectually too simple for them to want to do.

Rajiv Parikh:

All right. So this is great because both of you were correct on this one. So congrats. Number three is the lie. There's no formal brain freeze bowl where contestants chug slushies and map their headache vessels. Although it's something like a chaotic neurolab might be able to do unofficially. Dance your PhD. Rustam apparently didn't do this, but he would like to. Science magazine runs a real contest where PhD students and graduates turn their research into dance videos with categories like physics, biology, etc. And prize money for winners judged both on scientific accuracy and choreography. Number two, March Mammal Madness, biologist Katie Hind created this tournament style online science game. Educators and students fill up brackets while scientists simulate who would win hypothetical encounters based on ecology and behavior, complete with play-by-play battle narration, or maybe it's battle mammations. Wow, there you go. I gotta tell you, the brain freeze one just made me laugh out loud. Here's question three, and this is the potential tiebreaker. Rustam, because you're their entrepreneur, I'm gonna give two points to you if you beat Manan on this one.

Manan Mehta:

I like it.

Rajiv Parikh:

Here we go. We're gonna bring it home. Gotta beat the VC. Number one, the mouthwash gargling championship crowns a winner based on who can gargle a pop song chorus the loudest while walking barefoot on Lego bricks. Number two, extreme ironing is a real sport where people take ironing boards to ridiculous locations like cliffs, forests, and rivers and are judged on both ironing quality and how dangerous or absurd the setting is. Number three, in the world toe wrestling championships in Derbyshire, England, opponents lock big toes and try to pinch the other person's foot to the ground, all starting with an official toe inspection before the match. Okay, so one is the world mouthwash gargling championship where you gotta walk on Lego barefoot. Number two is extreme ironing. And number three is the toe wrestling championship. You ready? I know this is a tough one. I have no idea. Three, two, one. Both of you are two. I can't lose.

Manan Mehta:

I can't lose.

Rajiv Parikh:

All right, why'd you pick extreme ironing as your thoughts one?

Manan Mehta:

I don't know. It just didn't seem like something that would be a competition, more like a TikTok video. Like it's not like I don't know, like it doesn't feel like a good idea. And how you could get an iron plug into the most extreme, like it doesn't make any sense without a battery pack. Like, what are you doing? Like, what is this? So, yeah.

Rustam Esanov:

All right, you want to add to that, Rustam? I couldn't even picture it, even if I wanted the other two, I I was able to picture, but this one.

Rajiv Parikh:

You wouldn't go to some random cliff and iron?

Rustam Esanov:

No, I don't even iron at home, man.

Rajiv Parikh:

He doesn't even own an iron. That's a real scientist. All right, the lie is number one. Oh there's no recognized world mouthwash gargling championship involving Lego walking and pop song gargling, judged for volume. Although, as far as uh punishment games go, this is pretty solid. Who does ironing though? We have to like find some videos or pictures. We're gonna put that in. Okay. Extreme ironing, it's called Global Extreme Ironing, began as a joke in the late 1990s and evolved into a world championship with competitors ironing clothes in five extreme environments: forest, water, rocky, urban, and freestyle, and scored on style, speed, and actual crispness of the clothes. So there you go.

Manan Mehta:

Sounds like a starchy experience.

Rajiv Parikh:

Oh so there you go. And then toe wrestling, toe wrestling started in a pub in Wetton, Derbyshire. In the 1970s, players sit opposite to each other, link big toes, and attempt to force the other foot to the side of the ground with full-on tournament brackets and champions. Well, congrats, you both did really well. And our winner is Manan. He's the expected value winner, but we know Rustam is gonna be the overall mega winner someday.

Manan Mehta:

I win a lot more when he wins, so I want him to win.

Rustam Esanov:

And we win together. We win together.

Rajiv Parikh:

If you can turn cancer, I what a dream that would be. I'd love to see you make this happen. Okay, here's some personal questions I want to ask each one of you and just answer whatever comes to the top of your head. Don't feel like you have to nail it. So, Rustam, what's something you're grateful your younger self did or didn't do that's paying off now?

Rustam Esanov:

I think about it a lot because now I have a son, he's seven years old, and I'm trying to Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. I think one of the best things that my parents did is give me to a boarding school when I was 11. So that was a school that was where you would go and you would sleep, you know, Monday through through Saturday and only to go home on Sundays. And since that like young age, I built independence and that has helped me throughout my life. Like I left my country when I was 16. You know, I didn't know anyone or uh didn't have any family in in Turkey. So I think going to that school helped shape my personality a lot and super grateful for that.

Rajiv Parikh:

Wow, that's fantastic. Manan, what's the best example you've seen of someone using their influence or position to make something better for others?

Manan Mehta:

I think it happens every single day. I think people are inherently really, really kind. It's opening a door for somebody, it's giving somebody food on the street when you have leftovers. I don't think grand acts of kindness is what measures somebody's humanity. I think I take a lot of pride in trying to notice the smallest things constantly happening because it gives me a lot of optimism. Grand gestures get typically the headlines, but it's a quite regular, consistent ones that make the biggest impact.

Rajiv Parikh:

So every day you see someone helping someone or it's amazing.

Manan Mehta:

It happens around us all the time. But unfortunately, our brains are oriented towards all the negative stuff. So if you just open your eyes and see all the positive, you get a lot more happiness.

Rajiv Parikh:

People are kinder than you think. Rustam, what's something you wish you could experience again for the first time?

Rustam Esanov:

Birth of my my son. I think it's like one of the days where he was born at 6 30 in the morning. I couldn't believe that it was real. Like it just felt like a dream. Maybe it was exhaustion, you know, didn't sleep the whole night. But yeah, that was one of the best days of my life.

Rajiv Parikh:

So you can always do that again, you know.

Rustam Esanov:

I know, but I I mean I have two kids. I have two kids, and when my daughter was born, it wasn't quite the same.

Rajiv Parikh:

We're gonna delete that. Okay. I'll say this. I did tell my wife to be when I asked her to marry me, this will be your third best day. And the first would be the birth of our first kid, the second would be our wedding day, and the third would be this particular day. So I have four kids, so I understand where you're coming from. Yeah, I love each kid, they're amazing. But the first one is really amazing.

Rustam Esanov:

Every milestone is like that, right? When when your first child starts walking, it's like, okay, you take out the camera and you try to put a video, but it just it's not the same. It's not the same with the subsequent.

Rajiv Parikh:

I like your answer. That's a great answer. So, Manan, what's a skill you're convinced everyone else learned at some point, but somehow you miss the memo.

Manan Mehta:

I think one that comes to mind is that I learned a little later in life is the power of curiosity. I'm struggling to have an answer to what I can't think of because it's not processed in my head yet. I think the power of curiosity is the highest form of intellect. And learning that a few years ago has been one of the greatest accelerants. And then what also comes with that, now one more skill that I think is really important is mindfulness, is being an observer of your mind and not being an active participant with it all the time because it can be really exhausting.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah, and I think it's something that we end up coming back to. Sometimes you're exposed to it when you're younger, and then as time passes, you come back to it. Sometimes we fall off and we get intense in the day-to-day, and then we realize wait a minute, we have some of these amazing skills of mindfulness and self-reflection. And it's something I I have a lot of respect for you about because I know you spend a lot of time on wellness, health and wellness. So I appreciate it. And you bring that to all your founders. Rustam, what's a mistake you made that taught you more about yourself than any success ever did? Oof.

Rustam Esanov:

Some tough questions here. Maybe not keeping in touch with some of my older friends and childhood friends. You know, I I kind of regret it right now because, you know, there's always time to do it. And just going through grad school and then, you know, industry, family, it just kind of wasn't a priority for me anymore. But now I'm actively trying to engage back and initiate contact because they were part of my story and my childhood, and I I really enjoyed my time with them.

Rajiv Parikh:

So it's that sense of connection, capturing who you are, what made you who you are, and some of these special bonds, like when you get in front of someone you haven't talked to in a long time, but you remember from your childhood, it's like this amazing experience that pops out and you just exact, exact. It's as if you never left.

Rustam Esanov:

Yeah, yeah. And I don't know with age, maybe I'm getting more sentimental, but think about that a lot of times.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah. Well, I think part of becoming a father is becoming more sentimental or a parent. That's true. It's really beautiful. Okay, Manan, you got the last question. If you could give your team, current, past, or future, one gift that's not money or time off, and I've seen you do that, what would it be?

Manan Mehta:

I think like what comes to mind is the safety to experiment their boundaries. I think I do do that. It's the thing that I try to do. That you can't just do it with an action. It's a culture. And so I think the gift is to help them express their infinite potential as fast as possible.

Rajiv Parikh:

Yeah, I think it is amazing, right? That a lot of times that when we're starting these companies or building these companies, sometimes we go back to the incremental and what's easy. And you have to keep reminding yourself the power of folks taking big risks. I mean, you deal with it every day, but when you get pushback from someone, you feel like, well, I should come back to it. But you have to remind yourself, no, no, we're here to take risks. That's what you should be doing. Don't take the easy path.

Manan Mehta:

We're a society that celebrates a lot of problem solvers, but incumbent in celebrating a problem solver is that they all they see is problems. And that's not always the most fun way of expressing opportunity. That's right.

Rajiv Parikh:

You both have done it in a very positive way. So I want to thank both of you for being on the show. I'm such a big fan of what you're doing at Unshackled. It's one of my favorite funds to talk about. You inspire me, especially when you have your meetings and your communications about it. And from the annual general meeting was just fantastic in his vision and his set the feeling that he could actually make it happen. I'm so excited about it. So thank you both for coming on the show today.

Manan Mehta:

Thank you for having us and for all your support.

Rajiv Parikh:

Thank you. Well, that was really amazing. This was our first one where we had the venture backer as well as the entrepreneur together in one episode. And really, I asked Manan who would you like to bring on as an example of the great work you guys are doing in Unshackled? And he asked and chose Rustam, who is really changing the world in a fundamental way. I was always attracted to what Manan and then at the time Nitin was up to, and now Shaherose and Eric Ries, what they're doing together along with the whole crew, because there was something fundamental about backing immigrants before they got anywhere. Rustam said many of them want to stay in the US. They want to build their companies. They're already risk takers because they've already left their country. They've already left the easy comfort of their home and their friendships and all the people around them to come to a new place and be part of this magical experiment that is the United States of America. They've come here for that reason, kind of like my dad did and my mom did, and so many of my family members did, because they they came here not knowing what they were going to face, but they trusted themselves, they believe in themselves. And so Unshackled does is that they ignite that, they help find you and help you start something even before you have a product, even before you have a great business, even before you have any revenue. It's such a thrill to see that. I appreciated Rustam saying that, hey, you know, when I came to the US, I came with the intention of staying. I went for my PhD, but I wanted to stay because he may not have thought he was going to start his own company, but he definitely was thinking that he's going to do something significant, something interesting, something fundamental. And coming to America was going to enable him to do that. And eventually, after working at some big companies, he felt that he could truly do it on his own. And so he did the really cool thing, which is left his company, didn't have any funding, tried a few things, and looked for investment. And maybe he didn't realize how hard biotech is. And frankly, that's kind of what you want. Because if you overthink the expected values of these things, it doesn't pencil out, but you have to believe that you're capable of something bigger. And that's what he is. And God, I love how from a go-to-market perspective, talking about turning soldiers into allies or attackers into allies, it's just such a brilliant concept, such a beautiful visual way of describing what you hope to do or what you're looking to do and what you're proving that you can do. So that was just both of those things. And I thought they had great opinions about entrepreneurship, about unique ways of looking at the immigration system. I deeply appreciate Manan's infectious optimism about where America is and where it's going and how there's a public aspect to things, but it's also private industry will find ways to take advantage of the gaps and enable great innovation to happen. And that's something that you can do uniquely here. Frankly, it's the reason I moved to Silicon Valley. So, and then as people, they're just really cool and fun people who are very thoughtful about who they are and what they're doing. And Rustam, his daughter may not want to hear that answer, but it's true. You definitely remember your first kid. It's the most striking thing, even though you love every kid to death. So I appreciate that honest moment from him as well as all the things that Manan said. So I want to thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today's podcast and you must have enjoyed it, please take a moment to read it and comment. I read every one of these things and I appreciate it. You can find us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and everywhere podcasts can be found. Some of you are even on Amazon and we could be found there too. So the show is produced by Anand Shah and Sandeep Parikh with production assistance by Taryn Talley, edited by Lauren Balint. I'm your host, Rajiv Parikh from Position Squared, a leading growth marketing company based in Silicon Valley. Come visit us at position2.com. This has been an F and funny production. They are awesome, folks. Hire them for doing your podcast. You will be deeply appreciated by all the people in your community. And we'll catch you next time. And remember, folks, be ever curious.

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